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More starting minerals (Games : StarCraft : Mods : SC Revolution Mod : Forum : General Discussion : More starting minerals) Locked
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Jan 24 2013 Anchor

Begining in SC is rather boring, you always have to wait until you produce enough workers to start building. Solution is increasing the number of starting workers or the starting minerals ?
As I know from creator:

RavenWiolf wrote: AFAIK is still not possible to increase the amount of workers

So there is still possibility to increase minerals. I think at least 100 starting crystal its safe - no race can build Barracks/Stargate or smt and still obvious choice is to build worker (personally I would increase starting crystal to 125). Increasing starting mineral is real-time-saver and begining of game with slower speed (lie Normal) would be less passive.

Some creative critics of this idea (slightly changed by me)

RavenWolf wrote:
Zergs can train up to 3 units at the same time, so that can give some advantages and make zerglings rush more hard to counter.
they dont start the game with 3 larvae, but the larva spawn rate is faster than the time it takes to make a drone. So they may have its drones faster and collect more minerals than the other races, gaining an advantage that can cause balance issues.

Jan 25 2013 Anchor

In this case the Protoss would gain the advantage of such a change, currently as soon as they get 50 energy which is enough for self chrono boost even if they use it they wouldn't have enough minerals to keep production on constantly, increasinbg the starting minerals would make them able to constantkly produce Probes even once they are able to use the ability which would cause them to macro up quickly.

At the moment I find it being better as if you would chrono boost once you get the chance you'd loose a moment of worker production with the ability active.
This makes the obvious choice to chrono boost a bit later to either macro up or speed up gateway builds with fewer gateways using the chrono boost, do keep in mind that the effect does stay for some time and does makes any progress 100% faster during it's effect.

Also in the Terrans casde theer are build orders of building the first supply depot by 9 of 10 supply and then wait a moment until you get enough for the first Barracks, with teh extra minerals you'd not have to wait till you can afford the barracks as you would do that automatically and then you would be able to decide getting an other building like Raffinary or something fairly quickly.

And about the zerg I agree with RavenWolf's opinion

So if 100 starting minerals is too much why not make it 75, che change would be small and fun to play with and the impact wouldn't be that big either.

Jan 25 2013 Anchor

I agree, in fact with 100 mineral Player can immediately start building something (supply Depot) which may disturb some building orders (and starting rush clicking).

So how about 99? All 4 workes will have to gather minerals (which give 4x8=32), it take some time, so there is no difference in the first orders.

Now with 50 starting, workers have to make three course to build something [0 mineral (-50 build worker) + 32 + 40 (72 total) + 40 (112 total)],
2 course with 99 starting mineral____[49 + 32(81) + 40(121)].
3 course with 75 starting mineral____[25 + 32(57) + 40 (97 total)+ next is above 100]
2 course with 78 starting mineral____[28 + 32(60) + 40 (100 total)]

I prefer 99, because beginning is just boring and the more mineral the better (for me).

Jan 25 2013 Anchor

In any case I think there shouldn't be too drastic changes, besides no one should build a supply thing at the start which only means that 99 is almost 100 and does almost the same thing, therefor the effect of that is still big, since we're talking resources between 50 and 100 I find 75 being the best bet at getting a more interesting and balanced beginning and not have such a big impact on the game except getting the builds earlier for every race, think about it, only 25 minerals difference, can't be that bad you know.

Jan 25 2013 Anchor

i wonder why not use solutions from MMO games, player cannot move units outside lets say 30 fields from his starting position for first 5 minutes of game play (defensive shield).

I know this cannot be implemented and yes this is not for RTS game. But my point was spending most of time for small issues is not the best way to develop a mod :) make a version with 99 starting minerals and get feedback from users is it better or not :)

just my 2 cents, i don't want to offense anyone here :)

Jan 25 2013 Anchor

I was wrong, zerg start with 3 larvae, and larva spawn time its the same as drone morph.
Giving 100 starting minerals would make zergs to have 6 workers at the time other races only have 5.
I think its possible to remove 2 larvae from the beginning, so it might be balanced to star with 100 minerals.

Start building a supply depot or other stuff wont give any advantage, as you will lose the income that a worker can harvest.
Chrono boost increases production by 50% not 100%, I don't think protoss will get a huge advantage, but I will have to test.

So probably starting resources will be increased for the next version.

Jan 25 2013 Anchor

Look my main point with incerasing starting minerals is that it could allow the Protoss to self Chrono as soon as possible without running out on minerals during the chrono boost unlike how it is at the moment because you would loose production time by not having enough minerals to afford constant worker production if you'd self chrono boost as soon as possible.

Jan 25 2013 Anchor

Remember that nexus now start with 0 energy, so at the time you can use crhono boost the extra resources will be already gone.

Jan 25 2013 Anchor

If you'd find or get a fix for more workers at the start for every race would you keep the starting minerals at 50?

Jan 25 2013 Anchor

I can get a fix for more workers for every race... I also changed how every mineral patch worker gets gives you 5 minerals. Just like sc2! This fixes the problem of the extra minerals. I have added 6 workers and 5 minerals each patch in my mod already. I can help you if you want... :|

Jan 25 2013 Anchor

Sure, I would like to know how to increase the starting amount of workers. There is an exe edit for gather amount and times, but i didn't find anyone to increase starting of units.

Feb 6 2013 Anchor

Is it possible to make at start workers to go automatically harvesting minerals? Without players command. They already find the way to another crystals if one is occupy or exploited.

Feb 6 2013 Anchor

Of course it is possible, the Starcraft: Dawn of Change has this feature.

Feb 6 2013 Anchor

You re right. DoC mod is quite nice, its actully a remake, however like Rev more.

Feb 6 2013 Anchor

Yes, it can be simply done changing some AI commands in DataEdit.

Feb 7 2013 Anchor

I guess that we can count for some change in the starting mechanic?

My proposition:
100 starting mineral
6 workers
default starting command: sent all (6) workers to nearest minerals
default starting command: build one worker in main building (Command Center/Nexus/Hatchery)

100 (+50 if cancel worker training) is enough to build rafinery or farm , but its not default move for most players and with one worker in queue it looks like there is still 50 starting minerals.

with 6 workers player still need min. 2 courses with all workers to start building something OR build Barrack/Starggate if cancel worker training. Sending one worker for scouting is also less punishing in the begining.

workers __+ crystal per course (total after 1 course) / total after 1 course, if cancel worker training
8________ +64 (124) / 164
7________ +56 (106) / 156
6________ +48 (98) / 148
5________ +40 (90) / 140
4________ +32 (82) / 132

P.S. Main reason to do that is to remove unnecessary and repetitive every game micro and increase game dynamic especially in the slower than "fastest" gamespeeds.

Feb 7 2013 Anchor

Still I don't think that increasing the starting minerals is a good idea, a increase in starting workers alone is what I think is enough, considering that the Hatchery spawns a larva before the first mutating Drone is done and this is if you'd start with one larva, I think it's simply better to increase the starting workers to 6 and you'll have the same limitations as in regular multiplayer which already is balanced, the increase will only make the game more dynamic without affect the balance in any way, changing the starting resources in any way does change the balance even if the change is small.

Feb 7 2013 Anchor

I am not a big fan of thouse " early eco balance issues" because in my opinion there is not making such a big impact to the game, if zerg have 50 more or less minerals. I just dont see it. For my problem is f.ex. Zerg lacking with good anti-air units or Terran OP (tanks, BC). This is serious impact to the game.
I know that every change have some cost, but this seems fair.

In your (Raygoza) variant (50 minerals, not 100), I think there should be at least 7 starting workers. My point is to allow player to start building faster.
7x8 = 56 --> it need 2 course to build something, but player will probably build another worker (so mineral drop near 0) - so we can savely increase the number, even 12 (!) starting worker is fine. 12 x 8 = 96 minerals in 1 course, so player need 2 to build rafinery, supply or something (zerg have different cost 75 Crep f.ex).

I know that there is no such pop-cap in the beginning, so 8 +1 in queue (9 is zerg/protoss limit). [if no 100 starting minerals]

Feb 7 2013 Anchor

I have an idea which I think could be good, Increase starting workers to 6, allowing Drone to morph directly to Sunken Colony as known Creep and Spore can morph to each other and this could be good.
Creep Colony made to take 1 tile space, get collision toggled off and being available at the command button area together with the building buttons.
Thsi way you'll be able top spread Creep on narrower areas, possibly the new Nydus Canal exit could spread a little Creep, at least a tile around it, that way you'll have space to make a tumor and then you'll be able to make Defenses.

I meant sunken and spore can morph into each other as known.

Feb 8 2013 Anchor

Whats your point? To save minerals?

Creep is just too expensive, because its 50 mineral for Drone +75 construction just for molding ground (and it have to be placed in already creeped terrain!). Afterthat you have to transform it to some defence structure for another 50 minerals [ 175 total !]. For some "extreme" undecided economists there is option to morph one(sunken/spore) into another for "only" 50 minerals.

I dont play Zerg enough to be sure that my proposition is right, but ... :P
add Creep Colony some supply function
add Creep detection ability
make cheaper (free?) drone to morf into Creep Colony
make it free to morf sunken <=> spore (just time)

Feb 8 2013 Anchor

I think that when we give ideas we should now a little about game mechanics.
I like your idea about making creep colony to morph into the defenses free but I don't think it can be done unless the cost is reduced to 0 which would cause the defenses when they mutate into each other to also cost 0, unless RavenWolf knows a way that for Creep colony to morph for free to any defenses, let's hear him say something about this.

Also about my idea it was skipping the Creep colony in the acquirement of getting stationary defenses and morph directly to sunken, it does the same thing almost and the cost difference to your idea would be the same except for 50 minerals more expensive to get the spore colony.
This is less game breaking than your idea because you'd still pay the equal amount of minerals to get Spore and just half to get sunken.
According to my idea the Creep colony would become 1 tile big Creep tumor that is free for the Drone to morph into and that would be unable to morph into anything else, this would allow Creep spreading without defenses and wouldn't block paths because it would have colissions off meaning that units could walk over it just as the lowered supply depot, this prevents a player from making a stationary defense or as usually a Creep colony to spread Creep to where they actually wnat more defenses and or other buildings.
The terrain in SC1 isn't exactly Creep friendly when it comes to Creep spreading because narrow passages or not buildable ground could seal Creep off the other side even on those occasions where it would be in range and may be connected (in this case I'm not sure as it wouldn't be connected to the other Creep or only trough a remote point) Anyway I think there would be use for the tumor, maybe even allowing it to be put outside Creep and made very weak to attacks, that way it would only be a tool, could have the same durability as a Drone though and shouldn't provide much vision if any.

Feb 9 2013 Anchor

so your idea is to:

1. morphing directly Drone to Sunken Colony
2.a Creep become free structure (Drone cost only) which create tumor anywhere on the map (where it is possible), to allow creating defences (sunkens) and structures without Hatchery
2.b Drone morph to 1x1 tile of tumor => drone "melt" into stain of creep, which give possibiblity to create sunken (sunken give more creep => you create outpost).

if 2.b. then RavenWolf can make from the Creep a cheap (drone cost only) Wall-kind structure, build in front of your units to give lurkers,sunken/spore protecition. It would looks like coral reef.

my ideas was only propositions (all 4 of them would be OP)

Feb 9 2013 Anchor

Considering that the Drone would be the cost for a tumor I don't see how it would be unbalanced because both the Drone and the tumor would be weak and killed easily and also allow Creep spreading, version 1 needed to be put on Creep or version 2 without Creep, without Creep people may think it's unbalanced because it could block off buildable ground, well that is what the Overlord or was it the Overseer could do in SC2, spreading Creep, though you could chase it off and it's creep spreading would be gone, in this case it's the Drone the sacrifices itself to make Creep which is pretty balanced with version 2 because you could make outposts, like the Protoss a Pylon to put defenses and other buildings, in this case it would be Creep instead of the Pylon energy area for the zerg, but the zerg defenses do also spread Creep, this is better than being able to put defense anywhere directly as the defenses would need Creep to be created in the first place.
What did you mean with a wall?
Unless the Creep itself protects burrowed units they wouldn't have any extra protection except for defenses as I said these 1 tile tumor would be walkable because they wouldn't have collision toggled on just like the burrowed supply depot.

Feb 9 2013 Anchor

Well, starting amount of workers wont be changed for now, as Immortality doesn’t have time now to tell me how to increase the amount of workers.

But i have increased the starting minerals to 100 and make the starting workers to automatically move to harvest minerals patch, they often go to the same patch so still require some micro to split them (this is only for the starting workers, the other stay near the base unless they have a rally point).

About creep colony, I agree that they cost too much for only creep spreading. But the zerg defenses are the strongest in the game so the final cost its kind of justified.
Not decided yet what it’s the best change, one of the ideas I have its to make the creep colony have some abilities, maybe spawn broodlings for some energy, to make emergency defense units, or transfusion to support your defenses or other buildings. And may be other that will be unlocking as the hatchery evolves.
So for their cost, the creep colony can have other uses instead of being only a transition to defensive structures.

Im still looking for a way to make sunken <=> spore to morph free or with a reduced cost.

About creep tumors can be a good option too. But I don’t see why drone should morph only into sunken colony and them morph into spore (that will cost more? why?), there should be able to morph from any of those buildings directly.

Creep tumor wont requiring creep to be placed can cause two effects that im not sure I want to add.
First it can be used to block construction to other races. Like build them into expansion places so the enemy (if not zerg) will have to wait until the creep goes to start building (in SC2 overlord can spawn creep but only at lair tech and the creep goes away much faster than in SC1)
The other issue its that zerg will become much similar to protos sin the way they build, each race is different and tahts what i like from this game .

The creep tumor requiring creep may be the best option as will improve the creep spreading, but wont cause any of the above mentioned effects.

Edited by: RavenWolf

Feb 9 2013 Anchor

In that case would you mind if the Nydus Canal could spread Creep in a small radius of it?
Maybe the Overlord could be the only unit to be able to place a Creep tumor upon open ground as an ability and only while it's staying put?
This tumor that the Overlord would spawn would be invisible, placeable upon open ground and have no collision while the one the Drone morph into would be visible, permanent, targetable and require Creep.

Also about Drone morphing directly into both defenses means that you need space fpr two buildings including the current Creep colony slot, but that tab is already full, The defeses already morph into each other and is very good because it gives them more flexibility because they are stationary and couldn't do anything else before except being what they are.
My ideas was simply skipping the Creep colony because that frees the Creep colony from usage in this case, gives fast defenses especially sunken which would in this case cost 50 minerals, to get Spore you would only need to spend another 50 and the cost would be the same as SC1 thus Spore Colony wouldn't be affected by this change, this is a solution, perhaps the morph into Spore could be cheaper and when morphed back could also be just as cheaper, I suggest 25 minerals, in any case any my suggestion wouldn't change the balance that much except for the cost reduction part.

I would prefer having a tumor that works like in SC2 but it seems unlikely to be done here and I'd like to see the Overlord making Creep, though it's possible I don't know how you'd tell the game when the Overlord is gone to stop generating Creep in the targeted area, my previous suggestion was using a tumor that the Overlord would drop, could either cost some minerals or energy, I think it may be a good idea allowing Overlords to drop tumors for something cheap like 25 minerals, but should it require Creep?
Keep in mind that the ability could be Lair required.

I think it would be good to skip the Creep tumor when getting defenses because technically anti ground defenses would be made in half the time.
What to do with the Creep colony was only a suggestion of mine because a Creep spreading building could be useful when you've freed this one from it's previous use.
The mod could also make all maps with Creep colonies pre placed to be turned into sunkens I think to assure compatibility in case required.

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