Rise of the Reds – or ROTR for short – improves upon the C&C Generals formula while also adding its own distinct elements to it. Most notably, the mod adds two completely new factions, the tank-heavy Russian Federation and the defence-oriented European Continental Alliance. In addition, the three original factions China, USA and GLA have been greatly expanded and redesigned in a variety of ways, with several new units, buildings, powers and abilities to explore and combine in your in-game tactics.
However when extra agility is required the vehicles 4 track units, incredibly, all swivel into an outboard position to reveal large ducted-fan thrusters attached to them. These are powerful enough to lift the entire vehicle clear of the ground and in this "hover mode" it can cross any type of terrain and even water. In addition it can reach speeds of up to 80 km/h, double what it can attain riding on conventional tracks. It was also discovered that firing the main gun rapidly while in hover mode could cause catastrophic destabilisation of the vehicle - this was deemed not to be a problem however, as sustaining hover mode consumes so much engine power it reduces the autoloader by 50%.
Awww hover mode is cool!
shame EA removed this from origional zero hour,
although your version seems better than i remeber
it fly.
the wheel no needed any more.
hover mode looks awesome too
This is one good model!
Sweet!
look mom the transformer is drunk and fallen over....
Aw.... I wander how's the China's Tank Division?
Well, you'll never have to worry about those pesky anti-tank missiles again with the new improved ECM tank... and don't think the current release is anything like finished when it comes to China. Leviathan Crawlers, generals... ah, there's so much more...
Bigger Booms?
LOTS of those.
Sweet....
China's tanks are the same... after all everything is made in China
I really want to see how it switches between the modes.
and can it change back and forth or is it like shockwaves with just the one way.
Yes, it's a toggled ability - you can turn it on or off at will. Hover mode makes the tank faster and able to cross water, but decreases the rate of fire by a full half.
I'm going to say this twice: This is a well textured and nicely made unit.
But this unit is a terrible addition. The US already has fantastic and cheap early-game helicopter gunships that are based on realistic units. Why do they need an expensive, undergunned, underarmored main battle tank that is also another gunship? It's completely unnecessary, totally unrealistic, and the hover-treads look less aerodynamic than the original treads.
I give full mad props for the texture and geometry; the flying configuration just seems silly to me, and the concept seems horribly out of place in this mod. The real world already has flying tanks, they're called helicopter gunships. They're unarmored and shaped like helicopters for a reason, because it doesn't work any other way. I know there's always an element of suspension of disbelief, but realistic depictions of real world technology (hummers, A-10s) alongside unrealistic depictions of fantasy technology is jarring and silly.
Useful feedback: With the Russian Federation having access to two tanks that reliably smack the crap out of the US's units, what the US logically would produce (instead of this) is an improved Paladin with advanced armoring, laser protection against missiles and artillery shells, and at LEAST a 120mm cannon. In other words, something like the "overrated" Abrams tank, like in the real world.
Or they'd implement the M-270 borne ATACMS with BAT submunitions, which was developed to counter possible russian tank columns. Something that is at least founded on something realistic.
Links:
En.wikipedia.org
En.wikipedia.org(BAT)
I think you're looking for the wrong thing in Rise of the Reds, my friend. This mod depicts a fictional (re-emphasis: fictional) 2030s future in which weapons have developed slightly differently than they have today. While it's a magnitude more realistic than Red Alert it's still not reality.
Also, I think you'll find the Crusader II is not an unrealistic system, at least in its fundamental ideals. If you examine the Future Combat Systems programme then the transition from heavy armour to lightweight, highly-mobile units is extremely apparent. The tank does not 'fly' as you seem to suggest - it simply hovers a metre or two above the terrain, acting just as a normal tank does, but with the benefit of far greater mobility. There is simply no overlap between the Crusader II and the Little Bird or Comanche - totally different is really the only way to describe them. M270 and the Brilliant Anti-Tank rounds (never mind their horrifying dud rate) would be anywhere between two decades and almost half a century old by the time of Rise of the Reds anyway.
But i do argee with him that you should put M270 in the mod...
like, MIM-72 Chaparral that is currently in the mod,it's even older than M270,and out of service already ,ain't it?
Faced with Russia's armoured hordes, America doesn't say 'let's build a BIGGER tank!' - in fact, since World War II, it never has. Instead, it says, 'let's increase the effectiveness of the stuff we have'. When it comes down to a scenario such as defeating Golems and Sentinels they would, just as in RotR, place the strongest emphasis on increasing their anti-tank airpower - and they've done just that with the improved Raptor and Comanche. Not only that but a US tank force can out-duel a Russian force of comparable size with the help of the Avenger (doubling their firepower) and the Microwave Tank (shutting down the largest units so they can be finished off with ease), so they're hardly at a loss when it comes to armour warfare. The Paladin required serious 'nerfing', or decreasing of its strength, to get to its current semi-balanced state to start with.
If you'd like a totally realistic mod, please, go and try Cold War Crisis or something. Rise of the Reds, as with all SWR mods, puts gameplay and fun first, and realism a fairly distant second.
Pointing to the FCS program as a justification for this unit is a little flawed. Military development is based not on what you have, but what you need. Since the current military threat is infantry combatants in urban situations, it's logical to evolve towards lighter weight, super mobile units that can avoid or retreat from ambushes, and navigate constricted environments. Their armor only has to be light enough to keep away rifle shots. This isn't the case in ROTR, so projecting future US forces off of current trends is not accurate.
Threat dictates response, for ANY armed force. Developing a super mobile hover light tank is illogical because the US in the real world and in RotR faces no new threat that this vehicle responds to. Unless I greatly misunderstand things, it's a lightly armored, high mobility unit with light armament in the form of a 90mm gun. The Hummvee is a lightly armored, extra high mobility unit which can be equipped with missiles and machineguns, meaning it is effective against infantry units AND armor. The Towvee's missile, realworld and in the mod, is likely MORE effective against armor than the a 90mm cannon.
The ROTR mod has gone to rather great lengths to depict a /certain level/ of realism consistently across all factions. Most units are either approximations of real units (hummers, all the planes and helos, dozers, soldiers) or stuff that's conceptual (gyrojet rifles for the Russian shock troops, microwave tanks for america, point defense lasers). Dismissing me as a "total realism" fanboy is a failure of communication. What I'm calling for is /consistency/. Seeing a transforming Back to the Future hovertank with little stilts turning treads to turbofans next to a hummer and a ghillie-suit sniper, facing off against a tunguska, a BMP, and some T-series tanks... It's a simple game of "one of these things is not like the other". Hover crusader just doesn't fit.
If there's one environment FCS isn't optimised for at the moment, it's an urban one; until they get a reliable active defence system sending lightly-armoured vehicles into an environment where their mobility advantage is completely nullified and where they can get an RPG shot at them from any angle is virtual suicide. FCS is about defeating enemies from long range in conventional war before said enemies are aware of their presence through the twin platforms of mobility and networking. This is reflected in the Crusader II almost exactly; it uses its mobility to outflank the enemy and relies on a network-centric force of support vehicles (i.e. the Avenger and Microwave tank).
It also does respond to an in-universe threat; those threats are the asymmetric warfare tactics of the GLA, which severely disrupt a traditional armoured doctrine, and the somewhat lumbering forces of Russia and China, whose relative immobility can be capitalised on. It is also highly unlikely to be less effective than a TOWvee (certainly not in its current state, where they're bordering on useless) at defeating armour. The impression I get from the Crusader II is that it will be a tank with only moderate changes from the current Crusader, but with the ability to use its hover drive to become more mobile, not a sudden change into a glass cannon (or even a glass water pistol) as you seem to be suggesting.
Lastly, the reason it hovers is, above all else, because the original alpha Generals Crusader did. Because Rise of the Reds includes Alpha Generals as part of its make-up (the revert to the alpha system of in-game selection of a general, for instance), it pays homage through gameplay and design, and this is one of those designs. The team are set on the inclusion of the Crusader II, believe it fits their design goals for the mod, and have modelled, skinned, coded and implemented the unit at great expense of time and effort, and it is simply not going to change.
Compare the Crusader II to an Abrams, which by the time of the mod is half a century out of date (like the C-130 and B-52 today). The Abrams weighs ~67 tons, has at thickest a meter of chobham armor, and a 120mm cannon capable of firing APFSDS rounds that reliably defeat 50cm of composite armor (aka a T-72 tank). From the main website, the Crusader II weighs 22 tons, has built in transformation equipment that breaks up the armored side to deploy turbofans, not to mention the internal turbofan equipment, and a 90mm cannon. Sounds like they'd have to either invent super light-weight chobham armor, which would be much better put to use making invincible helicopters and planes, or they'd HAVE to strip out armor, hence: glass.
Electrothermal-chemical fired 120mm shells have the same muzzle energy as a 140mm cannon shells and are considered the logical counter to the T-95, not a 90mm popgun. 90mm cannon haven't been used as primary US battle tank gun since the Vietnam War on the Patton series, and certainly wouldn't be capable of destroying modern MBTs, let alone ERA-upgraded battle tanks. So, yeah... water pistol. A 90mm gun-armed MBT in a universe with, what does the Golem have, a 150mm cannon and enough armoring to withstand a hit? Better shells and cannon design make a big difference (see the ETC I mentioned), but when the other guys are using bigger guns at the same tech level...
As an element of jarring and uncharacteristic pure fantasy, a transforming hovertank might have been removed from the alpha for a reason. Whether or not the RotR devs worked hard on the Crusader II, it's still a poor addition. Yeah, it sucks and it's not nice to say, but nobody's above criticism. Not even the devs. Rise of the Reds would be a better mod without it. America already has the highest mobility army in the game, with two transport helicopters, two gunships, hummers, and on and on. What the US faction actually needs is something that can form an anvil to crush enemies against.
TOO MANY WORDS FROM THESE TWO!! :( Oh well at least the debates settled..
Well if the 90mm gun used say a tungsten round it could burn through and if its High velocity too it could do great damage
The Abrams most certainly does NOT have 'at thickest a meter of Chobham armour' or it would weigh 670 tonnes, not 67. It has laminated composites and Chobham plus depleted uranium plates which give an RHAe (Rolled Homogenous Armour equivalent - the thickness of steel that would be needed to provide the same protection) of over 1000mm. Contemporary tanks are able to achieve similar levels of protection without having to resort to slabs of DU, so the 'lightweight armour' is not 'glass' (and Chobham on a plane? Are you actually serious? Weight isn't the only reason they don't fit it...). The threat the Abrams was designed to defeat also ceased to exist at roughly the same time as it entered service. The Crusader II is a development to respond to GLA threats primarily - the R&D phase of any piece of equipment takes years - but is also designed to use mobility and networking to defeat larger enemies. Which it does. A 90mm cannon would be the perfect choice in any form of asymmetric warfare and, in combo with ETC propulsion and boosted-effectiveness projectiles, would be capable of damaging armour of considerable thickness. In case you hadn't noticed, tanks take several shots to kill each other in Generals.
Russia's armoured hordes were, believe it or not, what FCS was designed to defeat - a conventional, relatively immobile, vehicular-based enemy. The Crusader II represents the extremes of FCS. It's that simple. The Mounted Combat Vehicle would never beat a modern MBT in a one-on-one - it doesn't HAVE to. It relies on support to make it more than the sum of its parts and the Crusader II is exactly the same.
For all it matters Rise of the Reds could have a Hover Crusader tougher than a Sentinel and it wouldn't make a shred of difference to how fun it is to play so long as it's properly implemented in terms of balance and art. You can believe what you very well like, but it's not going to change the devs' minds. Certainly a majority of people here do not seem to share your views. Try and differentiate between fact and opinion, please.
Nevermind the actual weapon statistics on the lore portion, it's simply the same Crusader you know from ZH with a new look and a new ability: a toggle ability that enables it to move across water and move faster.
There's nothing else different about it other than them having SABUT Shells as an extra ability.
And I thought the Crusader was already cool when in generals zh.
I think saying that good gameplay -requires- an unrealistic unit with unrealistic abilities is lazy design. Or to turn it on its head, associating realism with bad gameplay is equally lazy. Whether or not its 100% realism, inspired by real stuff, or complete fantasy, any military in a legitimate game has to be consistent in its treatment. Some people are more sensitive to this than others. The moment you break consistency, whether in balancing or in art direction, it no longer feels complete and the fun takes a hit.
I personally would have considerably more fun if the Crusader strongly resembled a real tank in form and function, because it would be more consistent. The other light tanks are all based on real units of the T-series, and other earlygame US units are hummers and avengers, real stuff. It doesn't have to be an Abrams or anything... the Golem isn't -exactly- Obyekt 279, and the Battlemaster isn't -exactly- a T-80, and the laser avenger isn't exactly a real Avenger, but they're all more or less the same distance from reality. Hover Crusader's way different.
Just because the hover drive is unrealistic does not make it more fun, and more abilities isn't always more fun either. The US side still has an excellent selection of high-mobility units in the hummers, little birds, and comanches. In terms of units with solid mechanical and engineering basis, a GLA equivelant to a transforming light tank with a hover engine might be a Flying Carpet soldier. (This of course makes me imagine T5 GLA generals power that summons a Genie that gives you a wish.)
Does that mean you don't approve of our giant airship spreading magical aura of healing and fixing? Or how about our giant lighting rod that can fry tanks (which I'm not sure is possible in real life). What about a soldier that has a 30 kilo gun that shoots mini-electro rockets? How about a helicopter with inter-meshing counter-rotating blades with dual 100mm recoiless AT guns? The list just goes on and on. (and the list will get longer).
I personally think Rise of the Reds is fairly consistent; much like the original Generals and Zero Hour, it's very loosely based on reality. There are a few units that are basically copy-pasta'd from Real Life (hummer, battlemaster, Grumble), there are units that are a little more unique in design but still possible in Real Life and/or have the possibility of being a production vehicle (Golem, Twin Fang, Berkut), then there are the more outlandish things that wouldn't exist in Real Life (particle cannon, propaganda airship, tesla coil). Hover crusader just happens to be the latter.
While I do agree that just because it's unrealistic doesn't make it more fun. Unrealistic units does make it more interesting and more unique. A game that is incredibly realistic is usually fairly dull. We generally try to add units that are either based on really obscure units in Real Life, old concepts or units from other CnC games, or completely original content.
Not sure if you realize this, but this is pretty much a copy-pasta from concept art from EA a while back.
( I6.photobucket.com)
Though we won't add 'crazy' things either. (mind-control, zombies, chrono-tech, animal units etc.) We'll never add a flying carpet guy, or a genie, or a fairy, or a *****-cannon, because those would fall under the 'crazy' catagory.
I wouldn't consider hover crusader crazy, because the basic principle is possible; you can attach ridiculously large fans to really heavy things to make them hover or even fly.
I just have to add to this comment - the Laser Avenger does exist now, but I also appretiate, you did not know this a month ago, which is ok, since the test of the prototype was in february.
Telegraph.co.uk
Shock trooper: En.wikipedia.org
Han: En.wikipedia.org
These things have existed at one time or another and were semi-viable. The Chinese Airship isn't inconsistent because it still looks functional though unconventional. Propaganda's healing effects are odd, but not fantasy (crew inspired to effect battlefield repairs). Propaganda HAS been used in the real world as a means of motivating an army. It's semi-legit, just like gyrojets.
The Tesla coil gets a pass. It's an homage to C&C's portrayal of the Russians throughout the RA series. 3 whole games compared to one concept that IMO wisely wasn't followed up on. I don't actually have to build any, they require a gen point and as such are optional.
The Hover Crusader is still inconsistent. Nobody's made a tank with stilt-like struts that support tread-hoverfan combo units that transform in combat. The entire assemblage is just as technically unfounded as a chronosphere or a magic carpet. Allow me to compare this fantasy transforming unit to another one in fiction in order to demonstrate why the "Fans exist, hovertank OK" justification doesn't hold: Yes, military aircraft did have swinging wings at one point, and small walking robots are being made by scientists. That doesn't make Macross stuff any less silly, and presenting such fantasy alongside real units would look just as jarring.
CONSTRUCTIVE: The hover mechanic seems forced; USA's mobility with or without hovertank is unmatched. The tankmode unit is much nicer than 'nilla Crusader. I'd recommend exploring the C&C1 Orca for realistic fan-powered units. As for exciting US MBT design features... the focused-blast effects of the Quick Kill active defense would be unique and interesting. Or adopting the MCS's planned armament of a cannon capable of direct and indirect fire missions, giving T1 US tanks the ability to fire over obstacles unlike other T1 tanks. ECT research for better range and damage.
I'm not really sure why you're trying so hard to argue that RotR as well as Zero Hour are 'sorta realistic' when it clearly isn't. Tanks don't just pop out of little warehouses you build in the middle of the battlefield. I'm pretty sure a particle cannon that shoots it's destructive beam into space and have it redirected towards the ground obliterating everything in it's path, isn't realistic. Also, the blast radius of a nuke is far bigger than what they have in-game.
With the Han argument, my focus wasn't on the counter-rotating inter-meshing blades; It's rare but does exist, in the Huskey as well as one or two other prototype aircraft. My emphasis was on the fact that it had two 100mm AT cannons on a helicopter. I'm pretty sure there's no chopper out there like that. Even in planes they only had the Spectre and the Spooky.
Sure, blimps exist (though the prop airship is probably a hybrid airship). Propaganda can motivate people and possibly make them heal and fix things faster or something. And sure, it's totally possible to attach small miniguns to it. But the fact that it takes like FOUR S-300 AA missiles to POP A BALLOON, just completely breaks your 'oh it's semi-viable' theory.
Either that, or you're from the future, where they have some seriously tough balloons.
dude, you are a pain in the ***, hover crusader is cool, get over it.
How about doing a barrel roll and magically causing missiles to bounce off at right angles, a four missile underground silo that magically reloads every three seconds, a Chinook - or even a Kamov HELIX, for that matter - carrying anything up to and including a hundred-tonne twin-barrelled MBT, MPT-4As magically necromancing a burning hulk to full combat readiness in six seconds, collecting magical supplies worth a grand total of the price for a grenade and using them to build an entire base and all one's units in the field from nothing with just a single structure or digger? Face it, Rise of the Reds is swarming with mechanics and additions that have no realistic basis, just like Generals and every other Command & Conquer game.
The reasons why it's in have already been explained to you at length, as has the Crusader II's theoretical realism basis, and the fact that these reasons override other possible realism concerns and your personal preference based on these. It has also been explained that the team is not going to change it's mind. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. End of story.
if any one want my 2 cents.... i like it!
maybe need a fan on the back to counter the firing of the gun! but apart from that its looks cool! well.... the smoke barrel looks odd but still!
Thanks actually a mighty good idea that would've added some more detail. However, the design is good as-in. (plus you would prolly want the modelers and skinners to work on new units instead of adding a fan to this one). :P
good point! new units = faster next release
but (a fast/lazy idea) just add a few fans in the wheels of the back tracks
sry for duolbe posting i would edit my last if i could so sry!
if u put fans in the wheels of the track (and keep them the way there are now) u could give it(the idea of fan base)stearing in hover mode
like if u turn off one side its turn that way!
just a random idea
The unit uses a standard hover locomotor and no special animation because it would look extremely strange if it did the latter - any issues of 'how would this work' are entirely hypothetical and as has already been pointed out totally secondary (frankly if you're looking at it from a realism point of view, I'd never argue that steering is the least of your worries). As it is the design is (a) a hark back to the Alpha Generals concept art which is almost entirely accurate and (b) finished and not about to change for this reason and others already stated. Also 'double posting' isn't such a crime here as on the forums because you cannot, as you have evidently discovered, edit your posts outside of a 5-minute error correction interval.
looks mint can't w8, it doesnt have to be realisticits a game
btw a particle cannon can be made with our current tecnology but it has to be from a statonary base like in C&C
You can't make a particle cannon like the one in Generals with our current tech; the US can barely even make a railguin, let alone a particle cannon (whatever that's supposed to mean specifically).
y not mind controll tho it was used in RA2
Mind Control = No.
EAT MY DUST GLA N00BS!!
CAN'T CATCH ME ON WATER!!!
This model follows the Destructive Forces mod unit: Hover Tank when upgraded with hover
Actually, this is pretty much a straight copy of the Alpha Generals Hover Tank concept, and not from Destructive Forces mod. (truth be told, I've never heard of that mod).
Destructive Forces is cool too.
...whatever it is, it looks great!
ok ok ill give up on mind controll brill tank tho