This project is the continuation of our work in Warband crusade MOD "In the Name of Jerusalem". We will continue to extend and improve the old settings. The new campaign map will expand to the Upper Danube, the Nile Delta, the Dinaric Alps, and Transcaucasia. The Bulgarian Empire and Grand Principality of Serbia will be added. Kingdom of Georgia, the Saltukids and the Artuqids (probably Eldiguzids) may comes later. The timeline still starts from 1187, but we will try to add more interesting historical events until 1204 - including the Fourth Crusade.
Druzhinnik
(view original)
Post a comment
Great! The helmet looks perfect.
Thanks rocal, that's the pernik one
Russian unit? Cool!
Btw elite kite shields should have some patterns.
Bulgarian unit actually
No my friend bulgaria empire are still in slavic circle :)
Late 12 century Bulgarian units looked more like this:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c4Lo1V_FmdJUk8YiuimGz7QPT3Wz39j5/view?usp=sharing
Btw that yellow helmet with full coif is typical Russian. And Druzhinnik is 100% Russian word.
All I have to say is learn more :) The helmet was found in Moldvia (today's Romania) and in the territory of the second Bulgarian Empire at that period. It may have some connection with Russia, most likely a cuman helmet. But after all, it was found in the territory of the Empire. Then considering the strong connection between the Bulgarian Empire and the cumans, I have reasons to give a druzhinnik helmet :) And about the word "Druzhinnik" Just ask some bulgarian friends you will know some new knowledge. But the medieval version "Druzhina" is more good I think.
The pictures you sent are very old and not so reliable. I strongly suggest that people do their own research to distinguish whether a thing is correct or not. No matter whether my reconstruction is correct or not, I have my own research and result, but when you can't prove it wrong, it may be the best solution now.
Just let u know how Russian Druzhinnik looked at that times )
Anyway, your mod.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BkMhd9sCEJ7qh_5l4x7Je2mxv2y5FgH1/view?usp=sharing
Great illustration. I saw it about ten years ago. I used to be there, using some wonderful looking medieval illustrations from various sources as Bibles, but once I started to understand the sources of these artists' creations, everything began to get less beautiful. The helmet in your picture is Nikolskoie, a Russian helmet, but mine is Vatra moldovitei.
Facebook.com
I left a link for you, maybe it's a good start :)
I don't say that your reconstruction is wrong, folks. I just say that this yellow helmet looks like Cuman/Russian, but not Bulgarian. And when u say that this helmet was found in Moldovia, this just could be Cuman enemy warrior or mercenary helmet, which is not related to native Bulgarian.
This point I agree :)But you made another mistake that cumans are never enemy but a close allie to bulgarian-vlachian. They three made an empire and I will mix them into the army of bulgarian empire in INJ2. The boyar's bodyguards are not limited to only Bulgarians, so that's the interesting point. I'd like to equip some druzhina with this helmet :)
ok, lets say Cumans "never" were Bulgarian enemies, even when Bulgaria was Byzantine province :) But what about typical Cuman masks like on pic I posted to @kalpok1222?
Again, you trust Angus Mcbride's old art instead of the archaeology colletions I sent you ......That helmet in picture was inspried by Nikolskoie but that's not a "cuman" helmet :P
I talk about this Kipchak warrior now:
Drive.google.com
So your units look more like Volga Bulgars, without that typical Cuman masks.
I've given all my explanations. Obviously, your lack of knowledge of history and Archaeology prevents us from having a pleasant follow-up conversation. And North Caspian area? Oh god please check your map again.....
lol man..You don't know that there was independent Bulgar state at Volga river? And I say again, your Cuman units don't have typical Cuman/litchina mask helmets shown on link i gave you. So u have no right to say that your units look even like Cumans.
Enjoy yourself :)
same buddy, try be more humble. Hope other men tell u how Cumans looked like, if u can't see it.
Oh god.... Are you denying the cuman stuffs of Chingul burial?
i don't say that your "cuman" helmet is wrong. I say that without adding Cuman/litchina mask helmets shown on my last link, your Cuman units don't look original.
A warm-hearted friend just warned me about the age of masks under those picture's comment and now you are here to tell me no mask no Cumans... Although that YouTube video is not completely accurate, you need to click it and learn some at least
link on YouTube Video? Or I have to imagine?
They used archaeological sketch drawing, better than your art pictures :)
Again, Where are typical Cuman litchina helmets? If u don't have models, I can give u some )
starsmil the bazubands and greaves is too late for IN2's timeline, including the liner on the helmet of the minor druzhinnik
This pic shows Volga Bulgar warrior of that time. Similar helmet as u can see. But need to consider that Volga Bulgaria was different state in North Caspian area.
Drive.google.com
first of all that picture is completely inaccurate and theoritical, why? cuman chieftain wearing lamellar, volga bulgar warrior is using a type IV helmet from nikolskoe which is found far away from the volga bulgar territory, he even has a ponytail, baggy pants, and lamellar in which we do not have any evidence of them having those 4
Man, I talk about helmets, nothing else. There a lot sources say that Cumans had litchina masks (Number 2 on this pic).
Question - where are such helmets in your mod?
why are you suddenly bringing up a cuman litchina when no one is talking about it?
I talk about it. Ellistemplar told me that this unit is Cuman/Bulgarian. Now I ask- where are typical litchina in your mod? And what right u have to call unit Cumans without typical litchina?
this is a bulgarian druzhinnik with a type 4 helmet that was found in a cuman burial in moldova, which conludes the fact that type 4 helmets might as well spread to the northern parts of bulgaria, not just worn by rus and cumans. what ellis is trying to say is that the helmet will be given to the rus and cuman mercs too since that helmet is from a cuman burial mound and is probably made in nearby rus principality like galich or kiev
Ok, thanks for answer.
also why do you show angus mcbride art? he makes inaccurate stuff. we dont even have much evidence of nomads wearing Type IV helmets with spectacles. nikolskoe helmet it self was found in oryol region in the chernigov principality more closer to moscow than kiev it self.
Nikolskoe helmet is similar to Cuman helmet u have in mod. Thats what I say. If u want made Cumans, they should have distinctive features, and don't look like Russian or Volga Bulgars.
maille eyes in spectacles from chingul burial mound already makes it unique for the cumans than the regular type iv helmets that the rus wears
btw Rus also had maille eyes (full coif)
but not maille spectacles
the "pecheneg" woman in the picture it self is basically based on what is probably a cuman stone balbal.
btw how "Druzhinnik" word refer to Cumans?
nothing, no one said that. the guy in this pic is not a cuman at all its just that the helmet is going to be given to the bulgarians cumans and ofc rus mercs
Is going to be given? Nice, good to know.
"Late 12 century Bulgarian units looked more like this:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c4Lo1V_FmdJUk8YiuimGz7QPT3Wz39j5/view?usp=sharing"
No, they did not. First of all, this is an illustration from a children's book. Also, the infantryman is from the Zemen monastery fresco, roughly 1355 and the drawing is wrong. The cavalryman is a combination of two soldier images in the Boyana church frescos (1250s) and almost every detail is wrong.
Ok nice! So what u say about Cumans without original litchina masks? Mod team should add them or ignore like now?
There are Cuman mask, just not the type on the picture from your link. Those type of Cuman mask is post-Mongolian. But it is clear that not every Cuman would wear that. There is a decent video that illustrate those point on Youtube:
Thanks for video! I agree that not every Cuman would wear that mask. But again, why there is no such original Cuman mask in this mod? If we all say that mod is totally historical.
Because those mask are still in the process of modeling. Please understand that we can only show the model that we already made. Since we only started to work on Cumans recently and many thing are still work in progress, which include the early mask we choose. On the topic of mask, they are likely to only be wear by "tribal leaders" and "elite/heroic warriors"; but not common warriors of Cuman. In fact, they are rather rare according to archeological evidence but they do exist.
To put it simple, there will be a few mask reserve for Cumans in high position. But they will not be that common (e.g., KC:D). And we did not finish them yet so we can not show it right now.
Thanks for clear answer. Sadly your team mates could not explain for 3 days why your Cuman units don't look like original Cumans (considering that its elite unit).
Btw it was weird for me to see Cumans in unit called "Druzhinnik". As i understand, u will fix it.
I didn't see the problem there, he is just explaining that why the Cuman mask from your imagine is not appropriate for our mod because it is from a later period. I think it is about misunderstanding/miscommunication. Where you are thinking that we are not going to add Cuman mask but Ellis think you are argue for post-Mongolian mask and Cuman impression from popular culture. And the concept of Original Cuman is also "incorrect", just like other popular concept or impression. Since the one with mask might only be a very small percentage in all Cuman group.
I wrote about any Cuman original litchina masks, not specific on that pic. About "wrong" popular concepts - I will not argue, cause its not provable by both sides.