Report Should modders use others' IP without permission?

Poll started by Varsity with 1,125 votes and 42 comments. Browse the poll archive.

 14%

(160 votes)If they want, they are doing no harm

 61%

(687 votes)So long as they notify the IP holders (and aren't then told to stop)

 18%

(206 votes)No, they should use their own ideas

 6%

(72 votes)No, they will only be shut down

Post comment Comments
Fell
Fell

good luck with that one mac, but really tolkien enterprises has lawyers that are almost as good as the ones that work for lucasarts. They probably know about it even now, and you can expect to get the notice from them right when you've done most of the work for the project.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Varsity Creator
Varsity

Is making a level in the hl2 universe for hl2 technicly legal, or just allowed?

If Valve didn't want it, they wouldn't have produced modding tools.

Nobody minds mods made with the IP of the game in question: it's when you export that IP somewhere else that problems arise.

Reply Good karma+1 vote
leilei
leilei

ORIGINALITY DOESN'T HURT GUYS

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Varsity Creator
Varsity

No, I know how they feel because the team have made forum posts about it. :p

Reply Good karma+1 vote
Varsity Creator
Varsity

This poll is in relation to the recent Halogen news that's been around the web.

In my mind, it's not worth the effort unless you get permission beforehand (which is what I did, although as it turned out we hadn't been told the whole story). You're only going to be shut down some day, and it's not worth betting that you'll be spared.

Besides that, a mod made to be something else will never be as good as an equivalent mod made to be itself. Perhaps in regards to story and other areas cloned or tweaked from the imported IP, but not a lot else.

Reply Good karma+1 vote
OMON
OMON

Well i reckon that IP rules do not apply in modding, because theres no financial gain to be made by modders, and noone is taking credit for the original idea. In terms of gaming, modders using ideas from already made software is a good thing because it simply promotes the original product. In the case of Halogen, a friend of mine didnt know what Halo was (he really didnt), but being a Generals fanatic he has tons of mods. I showed him Halogen and he said that it was a very interesting idea, so when I told him that it was based on FPS that has already been released, he went out and purchased Halo1 and 2 just to find out what the story was about. So personally I think developers should start understanding what modding is all about, its not competition! This is one reason why I'll always respect Valve, they support the mod community

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Varsity Creator
Varsity

Two other things to be aware of:

1) Quite aside from financial issues, developers have to worry about people considering third-party stuff their own. Hot Coffee and its fallout have focused attention in this area.

2) IIRC, if you don't defend your copyrights you will be in a tricky position if someone comes along and *really* abuses them.

And now, a brief HTML test for my own benefit: 1 2 3

Reply Good karma+1 vote
VegasTheWZAd
VegasTheWZAd

Forget that other crap. They will definitely be shut down (fox'd), and many times, should be. Anybody who says otherwise has never made and tried to protect their own IP.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Fell
Fell

The fundamental problem with Halogen ( I believe) was that it was going to be a mod for Generals, if it had been designed for Halo Pc microsoft might not have had such an issue, but the fact people would probably buy Generals so they could play Halogen does involve money even if it wouldn't go to the people who made the mod. That being said mods should be original, because when they are based on allready exsisting things they have to bend to the rules of that story and there just isn't any originality. Originality is the one thing that mods can do better then the industy and giving that up just makes me wonder why anyone would make the mod or play it then in the first place?

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
LittleDevil
LittleDevil

Sometimes, and often its an idea based off of a current game. Only thing in relation is the general look, other than that everything else about it is different. Thats what I see most mods being. I see them in relation with many games that are out. But because it is only looking like it, and everything else is original, I dont see the point, of getting all butt hurt about it. So long as the original owners are notified, and ok it, I really dont see an issue.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Nate@LGP
Nate@LGP

This reminds me of the South Park where Butters is informed after he does anything that "Simpsons did it!" first.

There are very few original ideas left. So you take a few that you already know and twist and pull until you get one that seems new.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Fell
Fell

It's not true at all that there are very few original ideas left. it's only our way of thinking where we tend to only think along the lines of things that have been done before. Nothing is really 100% original and what we considered "original" is just a compilation of things that have already been done. It's that twisting and pulling and bringing in new ideas that does make it original. Starwars is just flashgorden/king arther/nazis/foundations/metropolis/easternphilosophy/ and who knows what else. The more things you mix the more original it becomes and our society values originality above all else in stories/movies/games. Saying it's hard to come up with an original idea and having that be the reason you make anouther cs mod is just not a good excuse.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
vcatkiller
vcatkiller

I think the current IP laws are a little heavy handed, but then again some protection has to be there.

If you've developed a fully fledged idea and someone else duplicates it down to the letter and sells it, I can see the IP laws being useful. But when fans are making mods/fan games based loosely on your ideas, giving you full credit and encouraging people to look at the original, you'd have to be an IP nazi of some sort to want to do something there.

In the case of HaloGen for example, it wasn't like we'd heard anything at all about an RTS set in the Halo universe being developed by Bungie or Microsoft. And gameplay wise it wouldn't be anything like Halo original now would it? It just smacks of "oh well we're going to protect our IP because we can. Scew the fans!"

That's my thinking anyways.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Hige
Hige

the fusion of Halo and C&C was an original idea, and they had numerous unique units
but i suppose that Microsoft is being rumoured to be making their own halo RTS
and why buy a $80AUS game when you can get the same thing for $15AUS?

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
drunkill
drunkill

Unless you are changing the IP considerably, and using asking the original developer or IP owner, and they say yes, it's fine.
They usally say yes if it is on one of their own engines, or at least a game they distibute so they make some money.

I'll take Red alert: A Path beyond and Coomand & Conquer: Reborn for an example. They are both turning two great C&C games into a first person shooter on the C&C; Renegade engine. The engine Westwood made, they made the original games, both mods are turning the original games into a #d game where you play as a soldier/unit not as the commander.

EA bought out westwood and shut them down, now they own the rights, they are actually supporting the mods, giving both mods space at the Leizig Games Convention last month, allowing us to be shown off to people.

They realised the potential for the mods, and that there were many fans of them, so they embraced the mods and gave support.

But stealing IP and just making a copy of it oin another engine is bad, unless the games are freeware.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
TheHappyFriar
TheHappyFriar

according to this poll Valve should have no problems (and the fans) if someone remakes HL2 in the D3 engine so it's a HUGE improvement over the origional.

Would the Valve fans jump against them when Valve shut that project down?

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
makkE
makkE

There is nothing wrong in inspiration. Quite the opposite, inspiration is vital in art and entertainment.

But being inspired by someone elses IP and simply using it are two diffrent things.
IP nowadays, especially in the games industry is highly valuable, given the lack of new ideas in the industry.
So if you use anyone´s IP in your mod, it´s no wonder many companys will stop you.
The argument "I don´t make any money from it, so I don´t do any harm" is vain : By offering a game for free based on someone elses (lets say a cartoon company´s) property will lower their chance to profit from a computer game they might do one day, or sell the license to a game company. People would say: A cartoonX game? Why should I buy that. I already have CartoonX:Mod for engine Y.

Still. imho there´s nothing wrong with using other people´s IP if they allow you :) Though making up your own is more cool, no matter if the inspirational sources are obvious or not. It´s just more creative, than taking a whole ready concept from someone else.
To the player there´s no big diffrence in "Cool, a Halo-RTS!!" or "This game feels like halo were an rts, cool!"

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
vcatkiller
vcatkiller

There's a difference. What you're talking about isn't just using someone's IP, it's flat out plagarism. There'd be no point because essentially you'd be looking at the same game if you just ported it to another engine. Not only that but there'd be a strong urge to use the media from the original game, so it gets even more dangerous.

The closer example would be if someone remade HL2 using Gamemaker as a 2D top-down game or side-scrolling platformer instead. Or turned it into an RTS using the Generals engine with the Combine Vs the Lambda squad. (or whatever) Mods that use the names of characters, weapons, locations, etc that Valve created. I guess Valve would still be well within their rights to shut people down for doing these things, but it would be nice if they could shut the mod authors down early, rather than let the mod live for a year first, drumming up support and then cutting the legs out from underneath them. Even better if the IP holder could come to some arrangement with the fan-game/mod authors instead of just sending out a blanket "cease and desist" order which just makes them look like some sort of bully.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Fell
Fell

Valve is different then most game developers because they hold the rights to all there own stuff, and are so supportive of the mod community. codename gordon as an example, they'd probably just think that it would be really cool if someone made a rts hl2 game and distributed it for free.


Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
mikejkelley
mikejkelley

1) Quite aside from financial issues, developers have to worry about people considering third-party stuff their own. Hot Coffee and its fallout have focused attention in this area.


Just to clarify, it's my understanding that Hot Coffee wasn't a mod, but content already existing and orphaned within the game. It was simply 'unlocked' by some clever hackers (in the good conotation).

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Sniffman
Sniffman

What I'm missing here is an answer like a mixture of the first ones. I think, if the permission is granted by the IP holders, than modding teams should go ahead (but only if they have asked and were told it's okay). But I also think that modding is about being creative and creating your very own stuff. I like to think of modders (at least the Total Conversion makers) as game developers witout a budget. Copying other's ideas is not on a modder's intellecual level, I think. Though I'm surely not talking of the majority here.

As for the Valve thing. If someone made a Half-Life RTS (can such a thing exist? ;) ). I think Valve would contract the makers (provided the mod is really good) and sell it via Steam. But again, we're talking more about a game than a mod here.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
cheeseyballz
cheeseyballz

I think they should ask to use the IP or else they could be screwed over.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
OMON
OMON

Well I like Japanese IP laws, aslong as you change over 3% of the content, its yours

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Spector
Spector

Even if you do get permission, if the company feels like you are creating better work, they will C&D you anyhow and take your work (because they can do that) unless you prove otherwise with a signed contract saying you were allowed to make the mod.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Varsity Creator
Varsity

I don't hear anyone bitching about BM:S or all of the mods that reuse the HL story. Aren't they equally quilty of IP infringment? :rolleyes:

Technically, yes, and Valve aren't too keen on their little project despite not having made any moves.

It's hardly suprising that it isn't a contentious issue with the public though, as it's informally the same IP as is in HL2.

Reply Good karma+1 vote
Raminator
Raminator

Varsity wrote: Technically, yes, and Valve aren't too keen on their little project despite not having made any moves.

It's hardly suprising that it isn't a contentious issue with the public though, as it's informally the same IP as is in HL2.

And I take it you know how keen Valve are on our little project because you're on the developer team and are in communication with them, right? :|

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
migb
migb

It's just the game industry that's picky.
There should not be any difference in making a mod based on a book, a movie or a different type of game. (Strategy -> RTS f.x.)
All things is in principle an infringement of IP. But holders of non-game IP are not so picky about people using their IP in mods.

Take for example Games Workshop. There is more than a handful of GW mods out there, and they are left in peace by GW
as long as they make a disclamer that they are "in no way affiliated with GAMES WORKSHOP", and resist CnP-ing images.
And that is even though GW has made numerous PC games out of their IP.

A good mod will just give more attention to the universe, and increase the sold copies of the next official product from the universe.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Jambozal
Jambozal

GW has a very forgiving IP policy - as long as you don't mix their IP with others, you can make a mod based on it in any engine.

It's ******** that it's just the game industry that's picky - look how many Stargate mods MGM have CnD'd, and Lucasarts are not so kind either.

As for the Valve comment - they are also keen to protect their IP. They've already asked BMS to remove the Source tag, who knows what else they may do. Not that Valve havn't been fairly forgiving with the IP either, the fact that mods like BMS and Nightfall are still in production are testament to that.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Fell
Fell

I think valve feels obligated to the community to just let us use their IP. even when they dont like some of the stuff that's being done with it, and i have no idea why. It justs makes me wonder what the limmit is, to what point does editing a game becomes an IP infringement. Is making a level in the hl2 universe for hl2 technicly legal, or just allowed?

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Ancientpanda
Ancientpanda

:O

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Fell
Fell

I guess so, but what's written in paper? Would the actual map (not talking about the hl2 story or charachters) be your IP because you designed it, or their's because you're using their resources?

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
migb
migb

If Valve didn't want people to make mods based on the HL universe, they should not have included all their models etc. in the editor.
They more than asked people to make their own HL stories, as the HL universe is the only one you can reproduce without making any modelling work at all.

I understand why Valve is picky about mods in the HL universe, as they are direct competition to the episodic HL2 releases.
But I bet they got and will get a lot of extra purchases of HL2 because of the mods. Not to mention their extra, free income from distributing paid mods via Steam.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
KrimZon
KrimZon

I was thinking more of situations where I'd wanted to incorporate parts of older mods for which the contact information is no longer valid, especially when they're other mods for the same game that the new mod will be for. So for me the "So long as they notify the IP holders (and aren't then told to stop)" seems appropriate for the situation that I find myself in, yet I tend to play it safe and much prefer written consent.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Karuto
Karuto

There are tons of original ideas out there.

A guy with a cheese head having to gather up Tomatoes, Lettuce, Carrots, and Croutons in order to make the ultimate salad.

There you go, an original idea. Took me 10 seconds. :P

Next time, Blck, check with Microsoft and Bungie. Nuff said.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
dethtoll
dethtoll

another good example would be the system shock 2 rebooted project, which aimed to create a remake of (obviously) system shock 2, i believe in the doom 3 engine (good choice for it). they actually ASKED EA for its blessing, and EA gave it a cease and desist order instead.

that mod has since turned into sapphire scar, which is a similar gameplay concept, but a wholly original universe.

there's also a SS1 remake in the works for SS2, though progress has been slow- and AFAIK this is actually allowable since they're basically part of the same IP. kind of like black mesa source.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
mac89
mac89

Basically if it involves EA or microsoft DONT ASK! The lord of the Rings: Total War for Rome: Total War (teammember) based on whatelse? The Trilogy of Peter Jackson isnt being shut down by EA simply because they probably dont know about it. BFME2 is a rapture IMO and this mod is gonna own, just dont smack them in their face with a mod that is most definite gonna be shutdown if they know about it.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
FuryThoR
FuryThoR

Yeah well, I think that nobody wants that someone uses your IP on mod made for game of worst competitioner (MS vs EA). So it is quite reasonable that you will be FoX'ed at some point. I understand that most of us want to protect real IP (worlds, characters, story and other things that make your game unique).

So I would say that modders should little think that howto use others IP since I bet that MS would not have minded if HaloGen would have been made upon game (RTS engine?) which is developed by nowdays MS owned company... or that belongs to friendly companies.

Another thing is that hopefully NOBODY gets so sick that starts to claim historical events as IP or something similar ...

Anyhow as I have worked for my own mod project, I have been forced to dump straight few quite clean duplicate ideas, just because someone owns "trademark" upon that IP ...

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
rei_hidden_forest
rei_hidden_forest

I believe if your gonna make a mod and have the need to base it off something already done, then at least don't make a mod of a game. By that i mean making one game/engine and make it look like another even as a different genre. Halogen was gonna be a RTS. they said they had new units created for the game. why not take that talent and make something original and completely avoid what happened. There is no real reason to use Halo except for getting more attention for the mod, and if you have to rely on that then it wouldn't be much of a mod.

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Basket_Case
Basket_Case

they should be allowed, as long as they don't make profit.

Also, since it seems to fit here, there is a petition to Bungie Studios and Microsoft to allow Halogen development to continue, it is located here:

Petitiononline.com

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Karuto
Karuto

You'd need about 100,000 signatures for Microsoft to consider something like that, Basket. Petitions hardly ever work. :P

I agree with Rei, even if this discussion is dragging out way too far. Use that energy for an original product. You can create something far superior to Halo (might not take much).

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
TigerDude_UK
TigerDude_UK

i see no problem if they have permission. ask now or do something origional, if you work on a mod for a year and then have it shut down you only have yourself to blame. but if your determined to make something you expect to get shut down you could always make it on the quite and not promote it til its too late, once its released to the net its not coming off of it. though i appreciate organising a mod team like some kind of underground rebel movement would be difficult

and hot coffee isnt the best example since the content was already ingame,even if it did requirew a third party modification to access. so how about TES IV: oblivion nudity mod, that was custom content but the game was re-rated because of it, therefore damaging bethesdas ability to make sales

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Wraiyth
Wraiyth

Regarding Valve, they willl lets mods like Black Mesa continue development and go to release without any problem if they know whats good for them.
I also don't see any problem with permission. Sometimes re-makes or expansions are great (especially if they're done for a console game)

Reply Good karma Bad karma+1 vote
Post a comment

Your comment will be anonymous unless you join the community. Or sign in with your social account: