Report Should modders be allowed to use other peoples' intellectual property?

Poll started by INtense! with 2,163 votes and 116 comments. Browse the poll archive.

 64%

(1378 votes)Yes, free for all!

 36%

(785 votes)No, think up your own!

Post comment Comments  (0 - 50 of 116)
joker_mx
joker_mx

I don't see why not, honestly. As long as they give proper credit, why should the companies who own the property worry and go as far as sending a cease-n-desist notice to the modders?

Making a simple mod can be difficult, whereas making a more complex, total-conversion mod can be downright impossible unless you have a team of varied people, who are "specialized" in different areas.

A coder, for example, would not be able to create models, or draw concept art for the game (though there are exceptions, these are rare), or a modeler or artist will be able to create models, but not implement certain gameplay elements to the mod.

Grabbing an intellectual property is a much easier, and more viable route, since the majority of modders usually work by themselves, creating a mod based on some other concept already imagined by someone else (i.e. the original developers) will be better. And since not most of them have the time to work on a big group that is able to envision a completely new concept, they instead try to base their mod, as I said, in something previously envisioned.

In fewer words, yes, modders should have no problem in using someone else's intellectual property.

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mikejkelley
mikejkelley

Regardless of intent, the modder's preamble of "why not" is not so much of a rhetorical question as it is an admission of ignorance of copyright law. If a holder doesn't actively enforce his/her copyrights, it can be construed as a forfeiture of the rights to the IP. That's why ppl get C&Ded. So the owners don't get left with nothing.

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Jackal110369
Jackal110369

Completely right. The purpose that companies make games is to make MONEY. As long as you do not hinder their moneymaking or their reputation or their potential to make money in the future, you're okay. Once you start using THEIR content to make YOU money, you are wrong.

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Tatsur0
Tatsur0

Exactly

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Otreum
Otreum

I couldn't begin to tell you how wrong you are joker_mx.

Look at CrC from the Out of Hell mod for UT2004, he's a one man mod team who's almost done his mod after a few years while also having a job to go to and other life commitments.

It may be impossible for you since you THINK it's impossible, but it's definately not impossible for those who strive to be different in the modding community and really stand out from the rest.

I'm like CrC from the OoH mod in the sense that I am and have been working on a TC for a long time and working on every aspect of that mod.

And I think that unless the mod is a small TWEAK such as those for STALKER or UT games and what not, then NO the intellectual property should remain the author's, especially with a total conversion, I know i'm not working my arse off for years to have a bunch of little ingrates take my mod, tweak it up a little, add their own things and claim that they made a better mod.

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Otreum
Otreum

This karma system is really pathetic. One states their opinion on the matter, just like we're supposed to, and gets a buried comment for it.

So yet again I'll post.

I think quite a few posts here have summarized some main points quite well.

I believe it is up to the developer to decide whether he/she wants to hold the IP, but of course you can't hold an IP for something you havent yet created, so alot of mods get "clones" from wannabe modders or annoying people trying to stir up a hornets nest.
If a mod is done then generally it includes a copyright statement which basically says that the author has rights to the mod and outlines what can and can't be done and what should be done if anything CAN be done to obtain a part of the IP of the mod.

If you make a mod without a copyright statement and someone decides to claim that the mod is theirs...well, common sense prevails with the modding community as we all would really know who the true author is.

So basically all in all, the final decision of who owns the IP of a mod is made by the author/s.
How they choose to do this is their own decision, but in the end, this is the case and no amount of votes will ever determine who is allowed rights to an IP of a mod/game.

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FJS
FJS

You are absolutely right

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joker_mx
joker_mx

Just another thing:

INtense, it would be better if you corrected either the poll title or the options. It is rather confusing.

Put "Allowed to use others IP's" and "Not allowed to/Make their own ideas" instead of the "Yes"/"No" options.

:)

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jacksonj04
jacksonj04

Duly clarified, INtense! isn't renowned for his mastery of good English ;-)

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BrokenTripod
BrokenTripod

This question or the answers are worded oddly.

I could have clicked "Yes" for "they should be allowed to use other people's IP"

or clicked "yes" for "they should make up their own"

If I clicked "no," then it could be...Well, you get the idea.

I think the choices should be switched to what I have quoted above. =D?

I vote for "Yes" the using other people's IP, only if the other people agree to allow the modder to use it.

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bobwashere
bobwashere

The way I see it is: If the mod team isn't making money off it, it should be allowed. After all, who loses anything? Whoever owns the IP can smile knowing people like it enough to make a mod about it, and everybody else gets a new mod. I still am angry about Halogen to this day.

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mikejkelley
mikejkelley

"After all, who loses anything? "

The IP holders, that's who. Allowing ppl to create fan-based works of an IP unimpeded can be construed as a forfeiture of the copyright, leaving the creator with nothing.

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bobwashere
bobwashere

I seriously dont think that a single mod would steal the popularity of a game. Since a large group of gamers don't even know what a mod is, or simply don't care, it will work itself out. I've seen some pretty blatant rip-offs here, and never once doubted that the real game and it's owners were still making enough money.

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mikejkelley
mikejkelley

"I seriously dont think that a single mod would steal the popularity of a game."

That's not at all the issue. I'm talking about the IP holders.

"I've seen some pretty blatant rip-offs here, and never once doubted that the real game and it's owners were still making enough money."

Also irrelevant. The legal system isn't based on bobwashere's lack of doubt or concept of "enough money".

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Ging
Ging

You don't have to defend copyright, you're thinking of trademarks. Copyright is an inherent right due to the producer of the item in question (at least, in most countries), trademarks can "expire" if they are not defended by the owner.

Companies send C&Ds to protect the image of their IP and to ensure that if they enter the market with a similar product (like the Halo RTS mod vs Halo Wars) that it's clear that it's an official product.

Modders should spend extra time to come up with something themselves or use existing IP as a basis to spring board from in terms of ideas, rather than just taking an IP wholesale and abusing it. I appreciate the work that's gone into mods like GoldenEye Source or PD:S, but I'd much rather the teams had made something new and distinct.

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mikejkelley
mikejkelley

A veteran game designer, animation, and comics writer has reassured me in personal correspondence that copyrights do indeed need to be defended.

"Companies send C&Ds to protect the image of their IP and to ensure that if they enter the market with a similar product (like the Halo RTS mod vs Halo Wars) that it's clear that it's an official product."

Yes, and also to avoid having to compete with a similar, entirely free product whose very existence owes to the IP holder's years of hard work.

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leilei
leilei

if it's blatant stealing just for popularity factor alone then no

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Jyffeh
Jyffeh

Exactly. It's really a situational thing.

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Krenzo
Krenzo

What's the point in making a mod if you're not going to use your own ideas? Do we really need another Counterstrike or Dragonball Z mod?

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ambershee
ambershee

I don't mind building mods based on an existing intellectual property. But- I'd rather see something original. What does however annoy me are the people that use an IP but refuse to acknowledge the potential consequences.

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Varsity
Varsity

This is my view. I don't mind the principle so much, since it's not a profit-making venture, but I do mind the fact that people mindlessly rebuild their favourite <X> in game <Y> for no good reason.

Obviously, the IP of the game you're modding is an exception. ;-)

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Malvado_Zombie[X]
Malvado_Zombie[X]

Yes you're right Varsity

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Phoenix85
Phoenix85

iffy topic. They should be able to use other peoples ip's if they give proper credit AND have permission. If they have neither, then no.

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stat1cshade
stat1cshade

i'm not so bothered about film and movie ips that don't have games already made for them modders can mod away as long as they clearly state they are ripping of all or some of someone else's ideas

creative use of an already developed ip should be allowed, a halo mod where master chief is hunting down the covenant isn't creative use of an ip its just a ripoff

so in summary people should be allowed to use other peoples ips as long as there is a level of innovation and creativity

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jdeuel
jdeuel

so.... no more black mesa mods, woo hoo!

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goodone
goodone

question is confusing, plz change it, intense!

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Lucífer
Lucífer

where's the bit where you select 'Don't honestly understand or care' ??

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Gongong
Gongong

I only kind of answered the first part of the poll: "Should modders be allowed to use other people's ip".
It's confusing, yes, as well that I mistake "ip" for "Internet protocol". :P

I voted no, even if I think that agreements and basing your mod upon another mod is all right, I think stealing is outright wrong.

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jdeuel
jdeuel

No, I think that if you're going to be making a mod you should be making something original, not derivitive crap.

Like every stargate mod, what has stargate added to what boils down to a generic dm with teleporting.

Every starwars mod, what is it besides reskinned dm with swords

It's nice to be a fan and be able to show it through modding, but if you're not adding anything to the IP you might as well just throw your own can of paint on it and call it your own.

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Orion
Orion

As a Stargate Mod Project Leader I can still say that I know where you are coming from! There are so many SG mods out there nowadays that it's become a little boring! lol. But to be very honest, The only people to blame for this are the powers that be behind Perception Studios, JoWood and MGM! If it weren't for the legal battles between these 3 that led to the cancellation of the much anticipated and Official title "Stargate - The Alliance" getting canned at 95% of it's completion, then this would not be the case these days! There would be so fewer Stargate based mods!!

You have to try and understand, Stargate fans had been hyped up over this official title for more than 2 years from when it's first development steps were announced right up until it was canceled! This sparked outrage, upset, disappointment and in some cases utter depression within the Stargate / Gaming community and therefore modders simply went wild!! It's as simple as that really! lol.

But you do have a really really good point when you say-

"It's nice to be a fan and be able to show it through modding, but if you're not adding anything to the IP you might as well just throw your own can of paint on it and call it your own."

That's why some of us are trying to do something different when it comes to our favorite franchise and hopefully with these next gen engines such as UT3 we'll be more than able to achieve that and break the "Common" that has become "Stargate" or "Star Wars" modding! In other words, some of us are trying to take it to the next level and break the norm as it has become!

On a final and sorta side note... I love original ideas and mods that develop from those ideas as much as the next person and I'm a huge supporter of em! I too would like to see a lot more originality!! But us hardcore Stargate, Star Wars, or Star whatever fans simply have to do what we must in order to get our fix in our little corner of sci-fi and gaming escapism! lol. I end my rant right here! ;)

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Orion
Orion

Hmmm.... This poll simply prolongs and adds fuel to debates seen on previous polls etc. and therefore I'm simply not going to get involved! lol. But it is a good question! However I do not see where the word "Allowed" comes into it tbh! Not only does the question need rephrased as others have quite rightly pointed out, but the wording needs a little reworking too! What I mean by this is... who is to say who is "Allowed" to work on a project based on an existing IP besides the rightful IP rights holders themselves? The question (If I understand the meaning correctly) should be "Should modders be allowed to represent their projects here on ModDb if they use other people's IP's?"! This question for a poll here would make more sense! ;)

To address the question itself without trying to get into a debate about it lol... I say "Yes" (If I understand the question as it is)... Yes modders should be able to use other peoples IP's only if they give and acknowledge full creds to those who developed or are developing the existing idea or franchise etc. And also publicly acknowledge such from the very start from when their project began!

Some mod projects are made by fans, for the fans of certain franchises of which games as yet do not exist! And therefore I think there should definitely be a certain amount of flexibility as far as IP's are concerned!

As for those who mod on IP's and claim it all for their own... Well... That's a no brainer and serious No No..!! lol.

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Orion
Orion

Eh... WTF did I say to get voted down and have my comment buried like this? I simply expressed my opinion on the subject the same as everyone else!

If this is the way that the karma system is going to be 'Abused' here on moddb then I do not think I will be taking part in discussions in future! It's simply pathetic and immature for opinions to be voted down in this manner to be perfectly honest! It would be a different story if I insulted folks or was abusive in another way, but I was not!! This is pure and utter pathetic abuse of the system!!

And to MikeJKelly... I know we're on opposite sides of the coin as far as this debate goes but i see that the same thing is happening to you and is happening often! I feel for ya dude and it aint right!

Orion Out!

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mikejkelley
mikejkelley

A good question? No. It's a ridiculous question, and I'm not referring to (just) the phrasing, but the fact that this question already has a singular, definitive, legally binding answer with years upon years of precedent.

THE ANSWER? NO. IT'S ILLEGAL. THAT'S THE WHOLE IDEA BEHIND IP. YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO USE IT (w/out permission).

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mikejkelley
mikejkelley

Damn but ppl aren't a fan of facts around here! Lol.

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Tatsur0
Tatsur0

I think the answer is quite simple and obvious. No one can stop me from making a mod that imitates or rips off an existing idea commercial or not. It's my choice so long as I don't sell or profit off the idea. You can't ask an artist not to draw pictures of his favorite game character or a kid to stop dressing up as the Terminator on Halloween.

I don't really care for mods that ride on the popularity of the commercial product they're basing their game off of. However, they have every right to do as they wish. It's just plastic army men and legos on a new level.

Modding started out as something to extend the life of games by adding new maps, new content, new whatever the hell you wanted to keep a game interesting. Now that modding is a lot more popular people are creating new games, games of games that should have been, etc.

When I open up Hammer, Max, or Photoshop "I WILL" create whatever I want to create. Not a damn thing anyone can say or do to stop me. I may not be able to sell what I made but for most of us it's not about the money.

For everyone saying "No" you're saying no to-
Machinima
Parodies
Comic Strips (and anything else) that reenacts scenes in games/movies/novels/etc.
FanArt
Cosplay

Us modders who still have original ideas can still coexist with those who just want to play the scenario they always wanted to play out.

Tats...

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mikejkelley
mikejkelley

"No one can stop me from making a mod that imitates or rips off an existing idea commercial or not"

No one can stop you from stealing? Rly? It's called C&D. Plenty of mods have been stopped this way. Eventually they'll go after the engine companies for engaging in "contributory and vicarious copyright infringement", a legal tactic with precedence under the DMCA.

"However, they have every right to do as they wish."

Sure, this includes the right to be litigated out of existence.

"For everyone saying "No" you're saying no to-
Machinima
Parodies
Comic Strips (and anything else) that reenacts scenes in games/movies/novels/etc.
FanArt
Cosplay"

You don't get IP, do you? Parodies are protected by law. Machnima doesn't necessarily infringe on IP.

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Henley
Henley

make up your own ideas, keep in simple and keep it fun and you have a mod

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randomperson
randomperson

I think that it is aright to use ip unless the company says no. For example there are a ton of different mods changing all the cnc games to other versions of cnc and EA actively encourages this (some are even fount page on their website) are you saying that this is wrong? But then there are people like Microsoft that told halogen to stop, they did and that is also right

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Ziorich
Ziorich

I would display complete and utter Hatred Against Copy-rights, it's just stupidity. Yeah, sure! If someone changed the general Idea of a game, I'd be ******. but anything else, doesn't matter...
I'd be happy if someone made some kind of mod or anything of a Game i've made. Couse in the end, Game-Dev. should not be about Making money, but making good games...

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Ziorich
Ziorich

So If I ever make a good game(with easy & good mod tools, of course).
I'd give Moddb any support they want(If they need/want any).
Including the Modders. Just for the cause of Entertainment.

(I'd only support cool/good mods though, haha)
(I'd pretty much not even Copy-right my games)

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__MaX__
__MaX__

As we are starting a project based on a well know IP... i said Yes, free. But i just add : Free as long as the use of the IP is not commercial.

What is the point you'd say... the more important point : FREE MARKETING.

If most of the producers were cool enough to authorize that, it would give them a lot of marketing, communication, ads around their IP. For free.

But as soon as an IP allow the user to get some money... that's another problem. :)

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migb
migb

I would like to see a more mod-friendly copyright law.
As it is now, you must actively seek out the copyright owner and get their written permission, which they can cancel at their leisure.
And then you have the "must actively enforce his copyright"-thing, which can often lead the right holder to say "no".

I would like modding to be free as long as
a) it's a non-commercial project
b) the IP holder is given due credit
c) there is compeating licenced game project
d) the universe is respected (no Tomb Raider pron)

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Harimau
Harimau

wasn't there already a huge debate about IPs earlier.. I think someone just likes to stir things up a bit.

did you mean for c) there is NO competing game license

but the thing is, well i'll just quote from a certain writer's FAQ, paraphrase it yourself and it's relevant:

"Rights are a rather tricky thing for a writer. You simply want to set up an RP or make a little movie and have some fun. You are not expecting to market a game or to profit from a movie.

It probably seems like it would be fun and simple if I simply said, "Sure, go ahead."

But if the writer gives official permission, it can have unintended consequences in the future. If a game developer approaches the writer and wants to purchase the rights to make a game based on the books, the writer has to say, "I already gave someone else permission to do an RP of that." Then the game developer may simply end the negotiation.

Or if the game developer purchases the rights and markets the game, the game developer may later take issue with someone else doing for free what he has paid for. The game developer may see it as a copyright infringement on the rights he has purchased. Or the person who has made the RP may look at the game developer and say, "You took a lot of the ideas that I first came up with for my RP and used them in your game that you sold for money. That's not fair!" "

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Harimau
Harimau

"Often, when an author sells a publisher the right to publish a book, the contract will specify that the publisher can sell 'sub rights' as in movie rights or merchandise rights or gaming rights. If the publisher does sell those rights, then the author and the publisher share in the income from those rights. The publisher might not be happy to discover that the author had already given someone those rights for free.

This is why all rights permissions have to go through my agent. The agent keeps track of what rights have been purchased and by whom. If a writer gives someone permission to make a comic or an audio book version and at the same time the agent is negotiating a sale of those rights, things can get very messy for everyone, with possible law suits.

This is a long answer to what was probably seen as a fairly simple question. But often a writer is seen as stingy or selfish if he or she simply says, "No, you can't do that, even if you are not planning on making money from it." "

of course it's not -entirely- the same, but the concerns are similar. basically what I think is that the question isn't for us to answer, it's for the IP holders themselves. they can't give permission, that is, give their support, for reasons given above. but they don't necessarily have to force them not to; unless they're expecting or hoping to sell their IP/rights to a game developer for a commercial venture in the near future. so I think that modders should have freedom, until they're told they can't.

now, personally, i WOULD like to see mods (or official games) based on my favourite franchises, so i could play out a game using certain weapons, playing as certain characters, in a certain world that i've grown to love.
(to name a few i'd like to see a modern remake of Metal Marines (win3.11 game it's basically islandtoisland missile combat), an fps or rts based on Red Eyes by Jun Shindo, and an fps-ish game based on full metal panic!)
and so i voted Yes for that reason

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Ziorich
Ziorich

oh! And spreading that good game around. In all forms and shapes.
If I'd be Blizzard, And someone made a Starcraft mod for Oblivion(Middle aged Protoss someone?) or STALKER(Radiated Zergs?), I'd go: "Wow! Cool! Grovy!", and support them.

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randomperson
randomperson

that is what happand to the cnc mod for crysis, they even posted it on their website

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Ziorich
Ziorich

Cool! Didn't know that...

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sn1p3rs1x
sn1p3rs1x

You really should be able to. I mean, you aren't making any money and you are honoring the original intellectual property. Different mods aren't going to give other games an edge in a competition (seriously, who buys a game just for a mod, unless its Counter-Strike?). Mods do all good in the world and no bad.

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IrritAnt01
IrritAnt01

I don't think that's true at all. An IP could be badly damaged by the creation of a poor mod.

This is about the artist's right to control how their work is used. To my mind the money is a side issue, though it is the driving force behind large companies denying permission to use their IP. If that company down the track tries to create their own "mod" and sell it, their ability to make money on it may be compromised by the existence of a freely-available community mod using their IP.

Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free.

I believe that good games and gameplay should stand independent of their genre, fictional setting, story, etc. Mod makers should focus on gameplay rather than recreating their favourite character from another game. After all, gameplay mechanics can't be copyrighted, right?

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-hp-
-hp-

lol i think the extra comments at the end of each choices kind of distorts the meaning a little...
i voted no, but not for the reason that modders should think up their own...

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