Okay, I'm going out on a limb here and I'll probably get berated for this but I don't care since its the truth and it needs to be said.
After reading this little argument going on in the "Jesus is The Savior" article I'm seeing a lot of contradiction. Yeshua is the Living Word and it indeed does state somewhere the proof that He is God. Don't ask me for it, look it up yourself and learn. Also, someone stated that they believe what the Bible says and not what the Church says. If that is the case, then why do certain people believe the Old Testament is outdated and the Torah (Instruction/Law) is done away with? You realize that is a teaching of the Church too right? Nowhere does it actually say that in the Bible. In fact, Yeshua Himself said "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the Law till all is fulfilled." Has EVERYTHING been fulfilled and have heaven and earth passed away? No, we are not in the Kingdom yet so obviously not everything has been fulfilled and heaven and earth have not passed away yet. The Torah (Instruction/Law) is for ALL peoples. Teaching/saying the opposite is nothing short of blasphemy. Everything Yeshua taught was from the Torah. He kept the Torah. Before someone comes and says that He didn't keep the Sabbath let me say this: Yeshua kept the Sabbath. Healing on the Sabbath is not a violation and He also went up into the temple. Besides, isn't He the Lord of the Sabbath? Yeshua didn't have to keep it or the Torah but since He is God and God is not a hypocrite He kept it anyway. Remember, when the Children of Israel escaped Egypt they were a "mixed multitude" of Hebrews AND Gentiles and they were treated and instructed equally. It is also written that through Abraham ALL the peoples of the earth shall be blessed. This not only refers to the Torah as being a blessing but it is also talking about Messiah Yeshua Himself since He was born of one of the 12 tribes. If you think trying to keep the Torah is a heavy burden you are sadly mistaken, for Yeshua said "My burden is easy and my yoke is light." Since Yeshua is God and God is the one that gave the Torah (Instruction/Law) to Moses then it must not be a heavy burden. Yeshua also said that "the truth shall set you free." Well guess what? The Torah is the truth and it indeed does set you free. The ENTIRE Old Testament is relevant and filled with prophecy. I suggest you read it and ask God to teach you and help you understand it.
On a side note I would also like to mention something. When the altar is reestablished, please do not fall in among those that blaspheme it unless you want to die. God said what He would do to those that do this and quite frankly I do not want to be anywhere near a person that does this because I don't want their corpse falling on or touching me after they are killed by God's angels. We are rapidly approaching the end ladies and gentlemen and the signs of the times so far point to it. Please do not become another statistic in the prophecy about the "great falling away". To learn more and come to truly understand the Bible I suggest you go to Lionlamb.net and watch the congregation broadcasts every Friday evening at 7:30 PM Central US time. To figure out what time that is where you live go here: Timezoneconverter.com
Peace be with you.
Edit: Added a link to the most recent Q&A. It will answer Knight's question about stoning adulterers and homosexuals and many other questions some of you may wonder about. I submitted two questions, the fist of which is the second question in the entire broadcast and my second question is answered towards the end of the broadcast. Run time is 1:53:44. Here is the link:
We've already had this argument. If The Old Covenant was valid, shouldn't you be out there stoning adulterers and homosexuals yuribeat5? Shouldn't you be sacrificing animals?
The New Covenant speaks about salvation for the unrighteous instead of their death. The New Covenant does away with animal sacrifice because Christ was the final sacrifice.
What does the Psalms say about us?
Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you.
What did Jesus say in reply to those who accused him of saying that he was God?
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?
John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken.
John 10:36 how can you say to the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
Notice how Jesus says "YOUR law" and notice how his reply is denying what the Jews are accusing him of. He calls himself the Son of God. If he was God, why would he not admit it there and say "Aye, I am God as you say". Christ never feared the Jews in other occasions and they had tried to stone him previously and he had always escaped.
From this outcome, it's logical to conclude that Christ meant what he said otherwise you say that God fears man and lies.
John 10:38 But if I do his work, believe in the evidence of the miraculous works I have done, even if you don't believe me. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father."
The above verse is all what we agree on. This still isn't Jesus calling himself God. Would I say to myself that I and myself are one? Would a husband and wife say they are one with one another and form one entity? No, yet husband and wife become one in essence just as Jesus is one in essence with God just as we are one in essence with Jesus.
Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
1 Timothy 2:5 For God is One, and The Mediator of God and the sons of men is One: The Son of Man, Yeshua The Messiah.
Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
Why is it that The Bible always refers to God and the Christ as two separate entities? We cannot explain this unity of God and man and how it works but we shouldn't come to conclusions and say "God is Jesus and Jesus is God and God is The Holy Spirit and The Holy Spirit is God and God is The Son of Man and The Son of Man is The Son of God and The Son of God is God The Father" because we can't understand the mysterious of God.
Man cannot understand God and man will never understand God. God is a divine being beyond our comprehension, beyond our flesh and beyond our universe.
You are interpreting scripture as the Church has taught it's followers to do. Those teachings contradict the very words God spoke in the Old Testament and the words Yeshua spoke in the New Testament. You have completely ignored the verses I quoted and the proof I presented that shows you and the Church are very wrong. You are also doing what the typical Church follower does. Instead of of just taking what Yeshua said and following it you are quoting John, a mere man and interpreting everything the way you were taught by the Church in the past. Everything I've written has been purely from the Bible and the mouth of God Himself as it is written in His Word. Yet you keep wanting to argue with me over what is right in front of your face. Enough is enough. I don't know which God you think you believe in but I believe in the One true God. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of the children of Israel and God of the Bible who said the exact opposite of what you keep saying. The God that is both our Father and the Living Word Yeshua. Nothing has been done away with and everything that Yeshua Himself has said confirms that.
I was quoting words from Jesus actually. You were quoting words and opinions from man. I am against the Church, you are a for a Church.
Everything in your article is from your mouth. Not from God's mouth. You seem to think that you know better than what Jesus and Saint Paul said. You do not.
You're not really a Christian are you?
Oh really? How about you look up what I quoted instead of spouting lies and accusations.
Titus 3:9-10 -- "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them."
I'm done with this argument. There are many useful articles here, but there are useless ones too.
Yup I have to agree with ya. I tried and some people don't listen. So much for not quenching the Holy Spirit eh?
I think he was talking about you. The verse he quotes is about people who were disputing about the law. You've avoided my question though:
If you Old Covenant is still relevant, shouldn't you be out there stoning homosexuals and adulterers?
Don't be a hypocrite. Either fulfill the Old Covenant or accept the new one.
Don't continue to be an idiot and actually read everything I said that disproves your argument before acting like an "accuser of brethren" the way you always do. We do not have the temple or altar anymore so we can't have the animal sacrifices. Do you not give a sacrifice of praise when you praise and worship Him over food or during congregation? I have answered you in the past and I'll not repeat it to someone who clearly does not want the truth, but only what he wants to hear. I'm not the hypocrite, it is you who is the hypocrite for not reading, not praying about it and not allowing God to show you you're wrong. Nothing you have ever quoted or said has disproven what I have said and you never will. You talk like Satan by making accusations and contradicting God's word so I suggest you stop right now.
Nope. I never mentioned the temple or animal sacrifice. I said:
If your Old Covenant is still relevant, shouldn't you be out there stoning homosexuals and adulterers?
Answer or prove to everyone that you are a hypocrite. I'll ask again:
If your Old Covenant is still relevant, shouldn't you be out there stoning homosexuals and adulterers?
"You talk like Satan..."
And I guess you know how he sounds like right? I would never be able to say such words to anyone because I've never spoken to Satan, I've never met him and I've never heard him and I don't intend to.
And no, I don't act like an accuser of brethren. It's you who has done that when you questioned me worshiping God. Surely you know about what Jesus said about judging:
“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven." -- Luke 6:37
And haven't you heard the Parable of the unforgiving servant? The servant owes a debt to his lord which he could not pay but his lord forgave him. The servant - being a high servant - had his own servant who owed him a debt which he could not pay. The servant forgave him not and cast him into prison. When the lord heard of this, he rebuked his servant and punished him.
"So my heavenly Father will also do to you, if you don’t each forgive your brother from your hearts for his misdeeds."
Why do I bring this parable up? Because this article was clearly made with me in mind as though you had anger against me. If you don't forgive, God won't forgive you.
Remember these words:
John 12:48 -- The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
I haven't rejected Jesus or his words but you seem to accuse Jesus of lying.
I've done so such thing. I have quoted Yeshua time and time again and yet you reject His own words that contradict what you have been saying and then you deny I ever said anything that proves you wrong. I say something and you come on here spouting blasphemy by contradicting His own words in both Old and New Testaments. Then you keep trying to change the subject and make this about me.
You have not quoted Jesus. Nope, you've never quoted him at all, I've yet to see one verse from Jesus backing your claims. Matthew 5:17 doesn't mean what you think it means.
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Jesus is referring to the 10 commandments and other commandments given. He fulfilled them all.
Matthew 7:12 clearly shows what Jesus' view on the law is:
"So in everything, DO TO OTHERS WHAT YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO TO YOU, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."
The Old Covenant is still old and no longer in use.
Here are further words from Jesus about what the Law stands for:
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Matthew 22:37 - 40
To you, Jesus is a messenger of death, destruction and chaos which is everything that Satan represents. To ordinary Christians, Jesus is a being of peace, love, tolerance, forgiveness, joy and care which are the embodiment of God.
"However, their minds were hardened, for to this day the same veil is still there when they read the old covenant. Only in union with the Messiah is that veil removed."
2 Corinthians 3:14
"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:13
Repeat after me:
"The Covenant is different from the law."
Where in the Bible does it say that what Yeshua said was only about the 10 Commandments? It doesn't since that is an interpretation that the Church came up with. He was talking about the entire Torah. Also if what you say is true then why do you and other "Christians" not observe the Sabbath? It is written that those who do not keep the least of the commandments will be least in the Kingdom. Before you go off on another tangent filled with interpretation I'm going to point out that the Sabbath is Saturday and not Sunday. The Church (Catholicism in particular) "moved" it to Sunday.
"To you, Jesus is a messenger of death, destruction and chaos which is everything that Satan represents. To ordinary Christians, Jesus is a being of peace, love, tolerance, forgiveness, joy and care which are the embodiment of God."
I said no such thing. You have the nerve to interpret scripture with almost no understanding and now you have the nerve to interpret and twist my words too.
""The Covenant is different from the law.""
No really you think. I've been talking about the Law smart one. You don't even know what the Torah is do you? Torah means "instruction" and "Law" is a mistranslation. The Torah also refers to the first 5 books of Moses.
That has nothing to do with The Church. Unlike you, I wasn't taught by The Church. I simply got a Bible one day, opened it and started reading it as it should be read. It's you who is interpreting The Bible to suit your needs.
As TheUnbeholden said on my profile about you, you're pretty much shooting yourself in the foot when you say that Christianity is flawed. If anyone here was preaching satanic blasphemy, it would be you since you called Christianity flawed.
And yes, I and other Christians do observe the Sabbath but unlike you and the Jews, we will light a fire (which is against Old Testament law) and heal as Jesus did on the Sabbath.
And no, I do know what the Torah is. The Torah is the first five books of The Bible but you seem to be forgetting what The Old Covenant and the Law is. The Old Covenant refers to God's covenant with ISRAEL. The Law refers to the 10 commandments as Jesus himself said.
I think Christianity isn't the religion for you if you refuse to believe in the words of Jesus and the New Testament. Christianity means to follow Christ. You follow Moses who was a good servant of God but the Christ is greater and should be obeyed instead.
Hebrews 3:1 -6
Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest. He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house. Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. “Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house,” bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.
Think what you will. This wasn't directed against any single individual.
I take nothing you say seriously anymore because you continue to claim that Yeshua (Jesus) is not God made flesh. I DO NOT "hate" anybody. I hate false teachings, certain lifestyles, and attitudes but never a person.
Yet you continue to claim that The Old Covenant is in effect still. You go by Church teachings while simultaneously denying others.
No I don't go by Church teachings. The Church teaches the exact opposite of what I've been saying and teaches what you have been saying. I left the Church when I was being left spiritually hungry and didn't learn anything helpful or factual from them.
So The Church teaches that Jesus isn't God? Interesting.
Yes they do teach that He is God That's one of the things they actually got right.
"The Old Testament, then, should not be regarded as the Law of God's people today since as a law it served its purpose, was fulfilled, and removed from authoritativeness by the death of Christ. The Old Testament, however, should be treasured as an inspired book from God which supplies means of our learning, admonition, patience and comfort."
Blasphemy and heresy all in one quote not even of the Bible.
And are not your comments from your mouth? I don't remember seeing this in The Bible:
"Don't continue to be an idiot and actually read everything I said that disproves your argument before acting like an "accuser of brethren" the way you always do. We do not have the temple or altar anymore so we can't have the animal sacrifices. Do you not give a sacrifice of praise when you praise and worship Him over food or during congregation? I have answered you in the past and I'll not repeat it to someone who clearly does not want the truth, but only what he wants to hear. I'm not the hypocrite, it is you who is the hypocrite for not reading, not praying about it and not allowing God to show you you're wrong. Nothing you have ever quoted or said has disproven what I have said and you never will. You talk like Satan by making accusations and contradicting God's word so I suggest you stop right now."
Care to tell me which book in The Bible that this came from?
I've read your words and all I see is:
"The Old Testament must be fulfilled to the letter. I'm right. You're wrong. God Himself told me that you're wrong. Pray to God and you'll see you're wrong. Read my comment again."
None of your statements are backed by any scriptural verses. Instead of ignoring me, I want you to answer why you aren't stoning homosexuals and adulterers as someone who believes The Old Covenant is law should.
Your avoidance of the subject and attempts to make this about me only show that you are afraid of the truth and afraid to let go of your cult and afraid to listen to people who know and understand what is written more than you do.
If your Old Covenant is still relevant, shouldn't you be out there stoning homosexuals and adulterers?
Answer the question or show everyone that you speak only of an old law which you're too afraid and faithless to back.
More accusations and satanical behavior. Next you will be denying it again after I leave this comment. I answered your dumb question already and you keep refusing to listen or understand. You clearly have not read the Bible in it's entirety and have little understanding of what means what.
Accusations and satanic behavior? You don't know what satanic behavior is and there are no accusations in my comment. Only truth.
You saw the law about stoning was changed as Israel left the desert but you provided no verses saying where it was changed. The law of stoning was still in effect because the Jews were still stoning people in the time of Jesus and they even tried to stone him on several occasions.
So you know more about the law and scripture than the Jews of that time do you? Okay.
All I see is "blah blah blah blah blah". By your own words you taught yourself. So how can you claim any level of understanding when you have had no guidance? You really are a teenager since you seem to think you know more than your elders.
Ummm...yes, I am a teenager (where did I deny this?) and Jesus was a child younger than me when he began preaching to religious teachers and astounding them.
Your broken link doesn't answer any of my questions. You're no different from The Church since you accept some priest's doctrine over The Bible's. You think you're free from The Church? You're not. Not really.
I was referring to your attitude.
The link is not broken, you didn't read what I said is required to be able to listen to it.
You are a liar and wolf in sheep's clothing. Thats how I know you talk/act like Satan as he is the father of lies and accuser of brethren. You are afraid of the truth and hold onto your cult and self-taught doctrine. You have almost no understanding and yet you argue with me and others that have the understanding. Thats like the patient telling the doctor how to do his job or a student telling his teacher that he is wrong.
You must have met Satan to know how he acts and talks.
o_O
The link is broken. Windows doesn't open it. I don't know what system you're using but you should really develop downloads for the more popular system. I agree with all the other Christians here about The Old and New Testament but yet you single me out and act as though I'm wrong despite everyone providing the evidence against you that The Old Covenant, stoning and so on are no longer in use. Even TLhikan - who I've argued with about the deity of Jesus - agrees with me on this one.
You obviously have not actually read the parts of the Bible where Satan's behavior and actions were described. That is how I know. Anybody that has actually read the Bible entirely knows what to watch for and knows the behavior of the enemy.
You are the only person on here to argue with me about this. Even if you were telling the truth about everybody else it still does not mean you are right. There is NO evidence against the Old Testament/Covenant and if you read the Bible entirely you see that there are SEVEN covenants that build on top of one another. The Old Covenant and Old Testament are the foundation of the ones that come after. The New Testament and what it contains could not stand without the foundations of the Old Testament/Covenant holding it up. I find it interesting how you keep on trying to use the same tricks to turn this around and make it about me. Your behavior is a dead give away to the fact that you are a wolf in sheep's clothing determined to spread deceit and mistrust among brethren. Your refusal to pray before reading the article and your excuses about the link only show how afraid of being wrong you are because you are too petty and selfish to admit that Yeshua is God and to admit that you do not have the Biblical understanding and to admit that the only reason you won't listen is because you are afraid you will actually have to give something up like certain foods that are not permitted and Easter and Christmas. Your hardened heart will be your downfall if you cannot listen to those who plain and simply have more experience and know more than you do, period. But how can I expect someone who does not know Messiah to pray and ask to have his eyes and heart opened.
continuation:
You still have not answered my question: Where in the Bible does it specifically say that Yeshua was only talking about the 10 Commandments? Where in the Bible does it say that the Old Covenant is "done away with"? You have ignored the words of Messiah and accused me of doing what you have in fact been doing. That is PRECISELY what the devil does. You claimed that Israel is dead, you deny that Yeshua is God, and by your own admittance you TAUGHT YOURSELF. These things alone prove you are not what you claim to be yet you continue to blaspheme God's Word by picking and choosing what you want to believe and dismissing the rest despite what Yeshua said a number of times. As for the link; it is not broken it uses Real Player and runs on Windows. You have to have Real Player installed to play it.
Rev. 1:11 "...I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End..."
Matthew 5:17-20
John 5:46-47
Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'"
"Law" in Hebrew is "Torah". I don't care what it says or means in Greek because the true meanings can only be found through the understanding of Hebrew, the original language in which it was written.
By His own words He is saying that people like you He does not know because you are lawless (Torahless).
This is all the proof anyone could ever need to show that the Torah and Old Covenant are still valid beecause He said so! Your arguments are invalid and anything else you claim is like calling Yeshua a liar!
Well, we know that dietary laws are no longer in effect because of the Book of Acts, and I would read the Book of Hebrews to see what we should believe about the OT as Christians today. There are portions of the the OT that don't apply to us merely because they where national laws (like the Constitution if you live in the US) for Israel in that time period, which none of us live in.
You're right; the Law and Prophets will not pass away. But we do live under a new covenant: The sacrifices that symbolized Jesus' coming sacrifice are no longer needed, because the true Lamb has already been slain. More sacrifices would be saying that the one true Sacrifice is insufficient.
As for the Deity of Christ, Knight and I are having that argument on his article's comments (I think. Still waiting to draft my response till I see if he's done with his).
Will you say the same thing when the altar is reestablished and the sacrifices resume as the prophecy proclaims? I hope not for your sake.