When you look at our culture today, you'll see "Religion" and "Science" portrayed as two opposing ideologies, each grappling with each other, and Science clearly being the one you should put your trust in.
How we got here is a whole other topic, but the issue itself demonstrates a big problem with how we portray ourselves as Christians to the World.
Should the world see our faith (because really, when was the last time Richard Dawkins attacked Zoroastrianism?) as something that is opposed to rational thought and objective truth, and is it in part our fault that we are seen this way?
Christianity is not for stupid people (Okay, it is, but it's for smart people and average people too). The Apostle Paul was a very educated person, and if you read Greek, you can tell that he was university-trained. In fact, when he was challenged once, he was not accused of being dumb or ignorant, but that he had studied so much it had driven him crazy.
We as Christians should not treat our faith as something where we plug our ears with our fingers and shut our eyes and shout "NEENERNEENERNEENERICANNOTHEREYOUSCIENCE" and "just believe", as the world imagines we do.
Science isn't against religion; Science is knowledge about the world and the way it works. Evolution, secularism, and other worldviews that call their ideas scientific (and therefore, ours not) are condescending us by saying that what we believe is purely subjective, from out guts, truthiness, what have you.
Now, a personal question: Is this their fault for being sinners by nature in need of a savior (the answer is yes by the way), or yours for treating your faith like it goes against reason (possibly also yes, which means I did something I hate and made both clauses of an or statement true. Drat.)? When someone asks you about Christianity, do you point to some subjective rumble inside of you, some feeling, your changed life, or to your historical, crucified God and Savior who actually died in actual history and was witnessed resurrected by eye witnesses, who then wrote it down in what is the best historically documented document (redundancy is redundant!) in antiquity?
Paul said that Jesus being raised from the dead is what Christianity stands or falls on. I'd take on someone who believes in evolution or says God is evil or something any day, because we are to contend for the faith and teach the whole council of the will of God, but ultimately, Christianity stands or falls with Jesus' rising from the dead. Not your feeling, because every religion has those. Not your lifechange, because every religion has that.
Christianity is based on facts, not feelings. You can't change what the world might think to the contrary, but you can change how you witness.
This is well written, and the information is great. Also nothing is wrong with science, it helps us make sense of the world which God created and put us in. However evolution IS a religion, not even science since you cannot prove it science is mostly about proof, and evidence. At least from my perspective.
I'm glad that someone else has come to this conclusion as well - at least that science and Christianity are not opposites, but two sides of the same coin. O-b
I believe in four things:
Christianity.
Science.
Logic.
Common sense.
Atheists lack knowledge in Christianity, logic and common sense most of the time. Science doesn't answer all questions. Sometimes logic and common sense does too. For example, it's logic and common sense that something cannot suddenly spawn from nothing. We can even prove this by science in the following way:
Sit down on the floor and cross your legs. Next, wish for something to appear. Now, no matter how much you wish and wish and wish, nothing will appear. Atheism is the belief that the universe came from nothing and we have proven through scientific method that nothing cannot produce something.
Therefore, the opposite belief (a creator creating the universe) is the more logical belief.
There you go. Science just debunked atheism and you can even try the experiment at home. It's fun too!
Well Knight, there are many more ways of debunking Atheism, but I like your point.
You do realize that most atheists have more knowledge about Christianity then most christians right?
IMO this is because there not "real" christians. They just go with the flow not really caring for it. In my family for example my parents say there christians however they never go to mass. When I told them I was an atheist they gasped and such as if it were a crime. The fact is they never truly acted as christians and they still don't. It's more convenient to be christian and just say "sure" then to be Atheist and actually deny the exsistence of a god.
I respect you cause your actually knowledgable about the bible unlike the majority.
However in your case I ask you: Who created the creator of the universe?
Also atheism is the belief in a god doesn't exsist. The creation of the universe has nothing to do with so.
And I'm beginning to ramble as usual so good day mate, I eagerly await your reply.
Lol, love how you just also debunked your own religion xD.
Ok, so lets just say for one minute that God created the Universe. Ok, thats cool. Good for him. Now, here is a question:
Who/What created God?
Did he create himself? Impossible, he would of had to been created in the first place for that.
Right, so something/someone else MUST of created him, right? Ok, what/who created HIM? And what/who created the guy who created the guy who created God? And the process continues.
Damn, running out of options here! So, he must of *just been*, right? He is eternal and stuff, right? Well, if no one created him HE WAS CREATED OUT OF NOTHING!!! <--- Which, as you so kindly put it, is impossible.
FINAL AND CORRECT SOLUTION: God is a man made invention for those who want an answer to something that cannot be answered.
Oh haha lol, I suppose my faith in common sense is now restored haha. Great show.
If God is eternal, meaning that he has always existed, then he would not have been "created out of nothing" - he would be infinite, never having been created at all.
Of course, that doesn't prove the existence of God, but it does provide logic-based plausibility to the idea that God has always existed.
If God was never created, how could he create? How could he exsist if he was never created? Let me explain it like this:
A guy who does not exsist (God) makes a chair that does exsist (The Universe). Now, how does the guy, who does not exsist, make a chair that does exsist? Answer: He can't, because he does not exsist.
I don't see how saying "God has always exsisted and is eternal and is so powerful he was never even created" is logical or plausible. He must of been created if he did create the Universe.
No no no no no no. You are thinking too small and in miniscule human terms. God's nature and the nature of His existence is beyond our comprehension. We simply have FAITH and accept that He exists because that is enough. There is no point in trying to understand something that is beyond all human comprehension and ultimately irrelevant in the grand scheme of things anyway. There are more important things to be concerned with. Such as our relationship with God and how we can help others come to know Him personally instead of wondering aimlessly about why/how He exists. Even if we could understand it, knowing how/why He exists will not accomplish anything or change anything about reality.
*Atheist Facepalm*
Ooooooh I got downvoted, I'm oh so offended and you are so smart and awesome and sneaky! Pathetic karma trolls are pathetic. (not necessarily directed at Adenn 'Verda but whoever the pathetic karma troll(s) is/are.)
Not me mate, I just gave you karma to equal it out.
I haven't debunked my own religion Ten10dix.
Who created God?
Jesus Christ grant me...
I learnt this answer when I was five years old. It's funny how you atheists don't even know the answer to a very simple question which is answered in The Bible that you atheists are supposed to be more "knowledgeable" about.
1 Corinthians 2:7: "No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began."
Titus 1:2: "A faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time."
Jude 1:25: "To the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."
God is timeless. God existed before time since he created. God is endless, infinite and has no beginning and no end. He's beyond the comprehension of the human brain and a lot of atheists are probably scared of this fact and therefor try to "dumb" God down and say he lives in the sky. LOL, God is beyond this world and this dimension and this universe which cannot even contain him.
"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built! -- 1 Kings 8:27
Acts 17:24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.
"Damn, running out of options here! So, he must of *just been*, right? He is eternal and stuff, right? Well, if no one created him HE WAS CREATED OUT OF NOTHING!!! <--- Which, as you so kindly put it, is impossible."
So if he "just is" how can he be created if he has always been? Do you not see the illogicality in your comment? God has never been created. He has no beginning. Beginnings, middles and ends cannot exist in a place where time does not exist.
The Universe on the other hand had a beginning and exists within time as science has proved. If we go by your theory, we're still going by the idea that the universe spontaneously exploded from nothing.
God is the more logical idea.
Atheism debunked again. Time to cry myself to sleep. Will there ever be a worthy opponent I ask myself? Alas, God torments me for my sins and all are delivered into my hands and their arguments are destroyed by arguments. There is no fun in this. There is no challenge. What's the point? --- My go at a Bible verse. Good no? No? No.
:(
Lol you fail on so many levels.
How is "god always exsist just because" a better arguement then admit that we, the atheists, don't know?
We don't know who created the universe, nor do many of us care. Scientests just provide THEORIES that we may choose to believe or not. Christians on the other hand say GOD ALWAYS EXSISTED! THATS FINAL. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THEN YOUR GOING TO HELL.
Also providing proof of god exsistence in a book that we don't believe in isn't exactly the best evidence...
If thats your only basis to go against atheists...well then I pity you...
No. You fail on every level Adenn 'Verda. You atheists do pretend to know about the origin of the universe. You all say, "God doesn't exist! Lalalala! Christians are stupid and unscientific!" Scientists have provided no theories for the origin of the universe and if you're talking about The Big Bang, that's not a theory which really supports atheism because it states the universe HAD a beginning and WAS CREATED which really speaks against the atheism theory.
I was using those Bible verses to support the fact that God is timeless and exists beyond time and therefore he couldn't have a beginning.
How can one have a beginning when time doesn't exist? You know nothing about the principle of time do you? And don't come back with "Oh, maybe the universe always existed." because I just proved that it didn't.
So what other theories are there Adenn 'Verda? Was some dumb energy source in existence before the universe? Did this dumb energy source - for no reason - suddenly transform into the universe? That defies logic and still does away with the atheism theory because it implies that Pantheism is true.
You atheists just don't want to accept that an intelligent mind who controls everything was behind creation. I think it does scare you.
Your assuming that by proving that the big bang is wrong that therefore God must exsist. Which (imo) is nonsense.
I am no expert on how the universe was creating, but niether do I care. What I do know for sure is that I will always deny the exsistence of a god. And specially when your excuse for him exsisting is "time didn't exsits/he always exsisted".
And your saying that atheism are the people who try to explain the creation of the universe. Wrong. Those are scientests buddy.
-----------------
So you christians say that man kind was created in gods image. You do realize that if an alien race exsists (And I do, primarily because there are billions of planets out there and imo one must contain life) then it would basicly throw away many of your beliefs.
Due to the fact that why, in an entire universe, did god select us human beings to be the "chosen" to be saved? Or is there more then 1 christ who saves more planets? If so then does god have more then 1 child? Or does he reencarnate jesus in the body of an alien?
So god can exist without a cause then? What makes you think the universe can't exist without a cause? A cause requires time and space, neither of which existed Before the big bang.
God doesn't have a beginning!!
That means He was not created
plus God doesn't give us enough intelligence to fully understand Him (unless God gave us that kind of intelligence)
plus if God was created out of nothing then where did nothing came from??
even nothing came from God!!!
I don't think that science has all the answers, but i don't think that one being created it all, and if he did, we wouldn't know of him.
I think Man created God to give some kind of explanation to the question: "What created us?"
Exactly xD.
*sage nod*
btw: Media.moddb.com
Actually: I.dailymail.co.uk
How do you know that we aren't an accident? And besides, how do you know that it is YOUR God that is the right one? No one can know, in truth..
It is all speculation, but i think that, if we are created by some other-worldly being, we wouldn't be aware of his
existence.
Sure, i'll believe in a God, but as there isn't really valid proof of ones existence, i'll take my chances and not believe in one..
The evidence argues against an accident for the very same reason why chaos cannot produce order. God just makes more logical sense than the idea that nothing made order/something (an impossibility).
Firstly, I never presented a theory on how the Universe was created. Please read my comment beforehand.
Secondly, if you're gonna site the Bible (another man-made invention) and call that proof, then you might aswell stop right there as the Bible cannot be used to prove God exsists.. Why? Cause books can lie. Easily. You don't believe everything you read, right?
Thirdly, and this is similiar to the "Secondly", STOP SITING THE BIBLE!!! You think you can just go prove Gods exsistance and that he "always was" cause it is written down in a book? I'm sorry, but that is more then stupid. What if I write a book that says the walls can talk? Does that mean they can? NO! But if people begin to believe the book, they'll teach their children that and so on and so on until what started as a Practical Joke (in this case, in the Bibles place it is simply something to make people submit to another guys will) turned out to be something that people actually believe in.
Fourthly: Accidents do happen. Don't go talking to me as if I'm scared about "Gods Power". I think you are just too scared to actually admit that God may, in fact, not exsist at all and that he may, in fact, BE A MAN MADE INVENTION TO MAKE OTHERS SUBMIT TO THE GUY WHO INVENTED THIS! And bravo to that guy, he certainly did his homework. I'm sure losing your all powerful immaginary friend must be quite scary for you.
I would love to try and argue with you, but it seems like you believe an arguement is simply saying "Look! This is written down here so it must be true!" and "God just *is*, accept it." How is that an arguement?
"That which can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without evidence" -Hitchens
And I'm not even gonna respond to your arrogant comments on Atheists... Why is it all Atheists should respect Relgion when most religious people, like you, think of Atheists as idiots?
^
Bravo! woot! give this guy +50 Karma
Firstly: I did not "site" The Bible. I think you mean "cite" and I didn't cite it as proof.
Secondly: I didn't quote the Bible as proof of God. I quoted The Bible in the argument for God being timeless and existing before time begun. This was to do away with your ridiculous argument of a timeless thing having to be created to create itself. That means - according to your atheism theory - that the universe existed before the universe and created itself. All scientists would laugh at you for coming up with this.
Thirdly: Accidents do happen but accidents where impressive artworks spring up are impossible. Drop a can of paint and you won't find the Mona Lisa painted on the floor. Maybe in the fairy tale land of atheism but in reality, no. This universe is too complex in natural structure and mechanism to be an accident. Read Issac Newton's principia.
You've clearly ignored everything I've said and are just attacking religion now. My argument was that the universe had a beginning - contrary to your atheism theory - as The Big Bang theory proves and that God created the universe. God is more logical than the theory of something coming out from nothing because we have seen - through scientific method - that this is impossible. Your counter attack was that God couldn't have always existed. My counter attack was that yes he could. Surely you know that anything beyond time (which science has proven was created with the universe and EXISTS only in the universe) can HAVE NO beginning and NO END.
Scientists have provided no theories for the origin of the universe and if you're talking about The Big Bang, that's not a theory which really supports atheism because it states the universe HAD a beginning and WAS CREATED which really speaks against the atheism theory.
I was using those Bible verses to support the fact that God is timeless and exists beyond time and therefore he couldn't have a beginning.
How can one have a beginning when time doesn't exist? You know nothing about the principle of time do you? And don't come back with "Oh, maybe the universe always existed." because I just proved that it didn't.
So what other theories are there Ten10dix? Was some dumb energy source in existence before the universe? Did this dumb energy source - for no reason - suddenly transform into the universe? That defies logic and still does away with the atheism theory because it implies that Pantheism is true.
You atheists just don't want to accept that an intelligent mind who controls everything was behind creation. I think it does scare you.
You are basing you entire arguement on false infomation. How do you know God is timeless? Because it is said in the bible. And like I have said before, the Bible was created by man, and therefore cannot be used to prove anything, including God being timeless. Your "God being timeless" theory is as good as any other theory on the creation of the Universe, and not more logical then the others or more true then the others.
If you can provide concrete proof that God is timeless, and not simple theories or citations from the Bible, then you may have a chance of winning this arguement.
I don't have any theories on the creation of the Universe. I'm happy enough with it being created in the first place, and I seriously don't need to invent an "All powerful being" to be content.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it to?" -Douglas Adams
Scientists haven't provided a theory for before the Universe because there is simply no proof at all about what was before the Universe. You invent God and say he was before the Universe. That theory is without any proof at all and therefore can be dismissed without any proof at allproof (Hitchens).
The Universe could of been an Accident. It could of easily been an accident. God could of created the Universe. I don't know what created the Universe, but at least Scientists aren't making claims and theories without proof, which you are doing right now.
Us Atheists do not want to accept the God created creation (lol) because you religious people are giving out stupid arguements (no offense). Examples:
"It was written in the Bible, therefore must be true."
"God is timeless. You don't need proof about this, he just is timeless!"
No proof at all to back up either arguements. In fact, Religion has NO proof AT ALL to back up ANYTHING about God. That is why I do not believe in God, or Religion. There is no SOLID proof. Only theories. You are saying your theories are better then the rest and more logical when in fact they are not, and you are simply being very arrogant in claiming your one is the most logical when it has no more proof then any other theories.
And sorry for typos and stuff, I'm French and English is only my second language xD.
I'm not making claims. I'm presenting theories and saying which the most logical one is. The belief that the universe spawned from nothing is ridiculous.
"It was written in the Bible, therefore must be true."
"God is timeless. You don't need proof about this, he just is timeless!"
None of these things have I said. Why lie? You clearly don't know much about the four dimensions do you? Science agrees that space, time or space and time were created when the universe begun. Therefore, anything outside of the universe would have to be timeless, this has got nothing to do with those Bible verses now.
If you won't accept that then that's your own problem. You can either believe that we were accidents spawned from something coming out of nothing (which is impossible and you still haven't created a counter argument against it) or you can either believe that an intelligent mind was behind everything.
So for argument's sake, let's pretend your atheism was true, care to explain how nothing can form into something? My image I posted days back clearly does away with such a theory.
The belief that the universe created from nothing isn't ridiculous, it's exactly what happened, because the universe is literally nothing. Scientists have measured how much of "stuff" there is in the universe. You get exactly zero.
As for God being outside of the universe, isn't that obvious? We make computers but we don't place ourselves inside them do we? We exist outside of the computer as God exists outside of the universe.
Science.nationalgeographic.com
Science has proved that time begun when the universe begun. Therefore God would be beyond time since he created it and it only begun with the creation of the universe which is finite. Therefore God is timeless since he existed before time which we now know had a beginning which was at the same time as the beginning of the universe.
So my theory does have evidence backing it up. Stop nitpicking against those Bible verses.
Time began with the big bang, which means, god did Not do it.
Congratulations! You just won the "I like to comment without reading what I'm arguing with" award.
I agree with all of your points. If God were to exsist, he would probably be before the Universe. I completly understand that.
But until you provide solid proof that God actually exsists, your theory is still a theory and not any more logical or truthful then the rest of the "How the Universe began" theories.
Like I said, I don't have a theory about the creation of the Universe because I believe in "seeing is beliving", I need solid proof that something exsists to believe in it. I never believed in Santa, the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Rabbit or whatever cause I never saw them at all. Just as I do not see God.
Maybe thats just a "lack of faith"? xD. All of your claims are valid and well thought except for the one important center piece: Proof of Gods exsistance. Not just "he must exsist because the Universe is so perfect" but "He does exsist, here is the proof...".
Not my job to prove that God does not exisist. Its your job to prove he does. A job which is impossible, which is why I do not beliebe in God, let alone that he has always exsisted and created everything.
You make a good arguement, its well thought out and everything, but the only way to honestly "win" it is to prove Gods exsistance with actual proof. Good luck with that :P
I started to type out a big long response about how we can know that God exists and then I was like "Wow TLhikan, you sure are typing this big long comment that only people who bother to scroll down this far will ever read", to which I replied "That's a good point TLhikan, I should just post another article, this one on how we know that God exists and the Bible is true", so I plan to have that up.... later.
It'll get there. Eventually.
Looking forward to it :P