Space Marines - Balance and Suggestions Thread - Ultimate Apocalypse Mod (DOW SS) for Dawn of War

Use this thread specifically to talk about the faction; Space Marines. The Ultimate Apocalypse mod includes 12 factions in total. We require your personal feedback to improve each and every faction. This thread will definitely help us improve this faction in the future, so if there is no discussion about this faction, it is possible to assume that this faction is perfect as is. We want your every opinion, constructive criticism, and thoughts to make this faction better!

No new content requests are allowed.
No bashing.

What do you feel this race lacks?
What needs to be nerfed?
What needs a buff?

Balance in general - rate out of 10 and state why?

All questions are optional by your choosing. Feel free to also talk about something else not mentioned, but only about this faction! This faction while fighting another race is acceptable.

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Space Marines - Balance and Suggestions
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Tyranids - Balance and Suggestions

Edited by: Lord_Cylarne

There are cases wherein the Commanders lose the ability to train honor guards, I have only seen it happen to Killeus but am unable to isolate the cause (Honor guards are on)... It has only happened twice (I have only used Killeus thrice)

7/10

I personally think Space Marines are the weakest race in the game currently. The space marines themselves are only slightly more durable than guardsmen, and bolters only do slightly more damage than lasguns. A volley of bolter-fire should rip infantry apart, but it only does minor damage, and barely scratches heavy infantry. My suggestion would be to reduce the squad size of space marines, to maybe five or six, but also increase their damage output and durability drastically. This would make them seems like actual Space Marines instead of disguised guardsmen with pelletguns. This also goes for all space marines, including Terminators. Yes, terminators are strong, but a single squad of ten terminators should be able to lay waste to anything and everything. Just look at the terminators in DoW2, they got it right!

Another big problem I face when playing Space Marines in the lack of anti-vehicle weapons during Tier 1 and generally weaker vehicles compared to other races. Land-speeder Tempests are good, but they are also too cheap to produce. They cost more than the regular land-speeders. I think their production costs should be switched around. I also think the Hellfire Dreadnaught's assault cannon too weak and the damage should be increased.

Edited by: TheGreatGargoth

A few less Space Marines (of all types including vanguard, terminator, etc.) in squads. But make them stronger in every way to compensate (more attack, more defense, more accuracy, etc)

I noticed that Space Marines' plasma guns do little damage compared to the Chaos Space Marines' plasma guns.

EVERYTHING noted, said here, said elsewhere about the Space Marines is 100% completely done. :sweats:

Thanks guys! 11 races to go for the final 1.72 super check...

Uh... yes still do report any bug finds for Space Marines. There is STILL some things I could've missed. I don't have 1000 eyes...

Space marine are too weak. will post details later.

I wonder if this has been noticed but the chaplain is a bit much weak, he doesn't lasts long in battle, so if possible give him a buff.

Space marine are too weak. will post details later.

Well 1st of all like someone said above for them to be space marines their amour is really petty, & I took the time to do a true infantry test when SM infantry vs Tau/Eldar/evenDE/chaosect. 80% of the time every other race wins in infantry battle.

Now with the addition vehicles things get even messier but the game is win-able Especially if the AI does something stupid EX. lock themselves in their base.
okay SM-land-raider are good....all the other relic vehicles are better
whirlwind is good madusa,exorcist,MK11,Forgot DE artillary but are better
SM just do not pack the punch they need to. With the fixes @Lord_Doofus you speak about will help improve them exceptionally
Since we start with such weak vehicles You should grant us the ability to reinforce the land-speeder and its flying counterpart (and buff & debuff accordingly)
Anti-air vehicle like the AA but slower and stronger with anti-air armour would be nice
I saw the PIC for new turrets SM turrets should be very heavy and slow @ least some of course not bolters
Also improved Defense is a must bolters and artillery simply cant do it alone Especially in this Epic MOD
what might I suggest to differentiate this Races Defense from other
Maybe walls that have Guns like IG but instead different degrees of artillery and then an anti-vehicle gun
Also a feature like the necrons would be great but a little different SOME squads should be able to throw down a marker (or instant structure to call in a vehicle) almost like today's military calling in air strikes they can call in Vehicle drops for more then Infantry/Dreadnought front-line support Com'on IG can drop baneblades 0_0 and wipe out your whole assault Espiaclly the one with the plasma gun. besides space marine in WarK universe can drop everything from orbit ._.

They deserve something like Chaos
SM has 14 chapters to my knowledge most of which are in the army painter(if not erased).Just give them nice perks and a special weapon and or vehicle
variant

they are said to be," Marines are physically, mentally, and spiritually superior to any other Imperial soldier."
I hope you refer to that last line while updating the SM
Hopefully that was helpful sorry couldn't get to it time

I completely agree with this - i think, a bit of wh40k lore wont be bad for that EPIC mod- cause currently space marines are not space marines- theyr just fastly dying IG in disguise. But i really dont think that you are going to do these changes- theres enormous work done already and requested changes will take quite a lot of time, but if you will someday......

terminus ultra,contemptor??

Edited by: mauritos

Yep, a Space Marine is able to defeat twice adversary in melee in the codex. They have to be the strongest. At least for the Emperor's pleasure. :3

Space Marines are now my primary concern! Imperial Guard is now almost perfect with everything new added! It is the Space Marines turn.

Space Marine feedback and comments in progress. Bug reports about them will be fixed very soon, including the Immortal Chapter Master and Force Commander in Terminator armor.

Any last feedback about Space Marines, say it now!

I also thought the SM were weak. I played several games where my Vets and Dreads were easily mowed down by Eldar.

Why not keep the SM Tactical Bolter squads at 8 + a sergeant, but add 100-200 to their HP, increase bolter damage slightly, and drop their weapon upgrades to 2 total. For Devastators, give them 8 + a sergeant with bolters being standard, but give them 4 weapon upgrades (missile launchers, heavy bolters, lasers, multi-melta, and plasma cannon). This would make the Tactical Bolters and Devastators similar to the tabletop game. If you increase the HP on the Tactical Bolters, Devastators, and Assault Marines, you could put a cap on Vanguard/Sternguard or Terminator at 4 total.

I also thought that the the Whirlwind Hyperios was an anti-air vehicle according to the TT game? Why not make it an AA vehicle, and give it HK missile ability for ground use (similar to TT), and lower the support cost. I also thought the HK Missiles on the Ironclad Dread were weak, as they barely damage enemy vehicles.

If possible, the Land Raider Achillies, LR Ares, and LR Terminus Ultra (for Titan killing), as well as the Baal Predator and a Company Champion would be good additions (allow 1 Apothecary, 1 Banner Bearer, and 1 Company Champion).

Any way to represent different SM chapters and tactics would be awesome, similar to the Codex and Firestorm Mods (have Chapter or tactics icons in the HQ that would either unlock certain units, increase/decrease certain squad caps, or give you access to different abilities).

Lastly, what about giving air units a sight of 60, but no keen sight (since they are airborne), and adding a Tunderhawk Gunship as a relic unit?

Edited by: heat077

Someone wrote: Why not keep the SM Tactical Bolter squads at 8 + a sergeant, but add
100-200 to their HP, increase bolter damage slightly, and drop their
weapon upgrades to 2 total. For Devastators, give them 8 + a sergeant
with bolters being standard, but give them 4 weapon upgrades (missile
launchers, heavy bolters, lasers, multi-melta, and plasma cannon). This
would make the Tactical Bolters and Devastators similar to the tabletop
game. If you increase the HP on the Tactical Bolters, Devastators, and
Assault Marines, you could put a cap on Vanguard/Sternguard or
Terminator at 4 total.

Did that, done that but with 6 or it will be unbalanced. All Space Marine infantry were revamped about a month ago.

Second thing about the Hyperios was added ingame!

3rd thing, why only one of each? Apoth./Banner Bearer?

Fourth thing: Isn't that already in the mod?

5th thing is noted, thanks! There is already a Thunderhawk in the mod. Not as a relic unit. I like to build many of those.

Did that, done that but with 6 or it will be unbalanced. All Space Marine infantry were revamped about a month ago.
My thought was to leave them at 8, add 100 HP, and take away 2 weapon upgrades so they only have 2 total (similar to the tabletop game). Give the Devastators 8 marines and 4 weapon upgrades.

Second thing about the Hyperios was added ingame!
Will the Hyperios have an AA capability in 1.72?
3rd thing, why only one of each? Apoth./Banner Bearer?
I thought if you added a Company Champion you could cap the Apoth and Banner Bearer at 1 each.

Fourth thing: Isn't that already in the mod?
Having the different commanders is awesome, but I think someone mentioned about having an icon for Blood Angels (more AM), Iron Hands (less dreads and terms), Ultramarines, Imperial Fists (LR Achillies), White Scars (all mounted), Raven Guard (AM, bikes, scouts), etc. Each "icon" would add or take away units or squad/support caps.

Any chance of the LR Achillies or Terminus Ultra making an appearance sometime in the future? I believe the Baal Predator and the LR Ares were already done in other mods and could be added easily. I also thought it would be awesome to have a Rhino with 2 marines standing up in back using their bolters when it's loaded with a squad, similar to how a squad in a Chimera can fire lasers in the back.

I also wanted to know if it would be possible to cap elite squads (Veterans, terminators, etc) from all the races, so that the standard squads (tactical bolters, etc) are still in use in the mid to late game.

Yes Hyperios will have AA.

3rd thing is not possible to do, then.

4th thing may as well be very considered.

Though new units are never promised as we lack modelers. However they were created before, they are not ingame yet.

NO CAPS! This is not a limit mod, sorry. Instead, there are bigger squad/support caps and cost may still be efficient to use lesser tier units.

And about the Chapter master, why not giving him weapons like Dual Claws, Stormbolter ... ?

Is their gonna be any expansion of weapon types on this race?
Because for the Space Marine Chapter's thing I have a few suggestions that I think need to be incorporated in the space marine to make them more enjoyable/Diverse as the Chapters have unique traits Ultimate Apocalypse should have all at your finger tips creating The most Complete Space Marine Experience than ever
(doesn't need to be in 1.72) just saying, I don't necessarily know how you could have players choose and what consequences/Rewards should be their be for balance,But I imagine Something like the Chaos System Except the change is A lot More drastic.Like you can build Chapter Houses/Portals Whatever To Choose certain Infantry/Vehicles/Spells that the Chapter Possesses And be limited on How many Like the Daemons "Gift" System

And which units you take directly affect game-play because another space marine AI might Of only chose White Scar Physic abilities. While you have a "Gift" from a mixture of Chapters for simplicity I'll only name the ones with the most interesting Gear
My suggestions Are Specific Things Mostly used by a certain Chapter

Iron Hand: A squad Of modified assault marines but with Forgebreaker's (Legendary Hammer) for more intense Brute melee
"The Heart Of Iron" research something like the tyranids Ability to fight on when their supposed to be dead
"Bionic hand" Upgrade Maybe allow A space marine squad the ability to repair Vehicles Or pay to Armour a builder ?

Ultra Marines:Upgade Allow Maser grade Combi-Flamer "Infernus"
Research Allow Global positive Moral Booster Somehow
Champion No carries "Honour Blade" Its an Def And Atk weapon

White Scars:"Honour Gift" Ability to boost health of Some Squad's 30% or what you see as balanced (They gave each other gifts)
Upgrade "Power Lance" for the bikes Effective Against vehicles because of its disruptive energy field generated around the blade. Is to long for Close combat

Grey Nights: I'm pretty sure you all could just give them like 2 Daemon hunter units (like how Chaos & Chaos Daemons share a couple of Units)

Raven Guard: "Raven Pattern Shotgun" Silent Shotgun wielded by scouts Would be helpful when I get spotted by melee units 5ft away Please let them fire on move

And that's all I feel like writing now Will edit/finish this after later or after Feedback

And Blood angels with the sanguinary guard ?

Chapter Master Gladius is a 100 times better than Terminator Armour Killeus

True @R3PT0R ^^^

Every single thing has been looked at and fixed for Space Marines, yay.

If you don't believe me, play 1.72, but here is my feedback:

* Chapter Master and Force Commander Killeus is now no longer super duper unstoppable with the fury of the God Emperor.

^^^ That's huge, here is why:
1. Both commander's damage is way too high. Their armor piercings against pretty much all units is over decimating and unreal, OP.
2. Their armor can take a punch of 4 Baneblades and not die (seen it), fixed. armour minimum modifiers were in ranges of 6-8, with some armour bonuses, on top of that ranged fire protection, OP
3. Personal Shields just own, and there is a glitch in the mod where sometimes you cannot take a hit. :3

Many other things too were fixed / added.

I believe the Hyperios was added anti aircraft launchers for striking the air and ground missiles.

Some other things, vindicators weapon damages were buffed, too low damage.

Entire Space Marine weak thing was taken care of. Chapter choices: iffy. I might have to deal with that in 1.73. It is noted.

Last and final thing, Space Marines win and lose all the time, they are pretty balanced. I also have a few ideas of my own for the chapters ^^. But the biggest bug of Space Marines are fixed, especially the Path of Combat / Soul Binding removed, I did not like it. Librarian can have everything now, Space Marines are pretty sweet.

But that's only Space Marines. Ta!

THANKYOU!! Lord_Doofus you are the head of the God of mods