Ultimate Apocalypse is a mod for Dawn of War Soulstorm, which aims to create the most diverse possible unit and faction selection within the confines of the original DOW engine. We strive to create the most engaging and balanced Warhammer 40,000 game that we can, without sacrificing the fun factor. From hordes of Orks to the towering Titans, you can always find a new way to play UA. We invite all of you to join us on our Discord server to keep up with the development of the mod!

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PRAAAISE THE BUNKERS!!! (Games : Dawn of War : Mods : Ultimate Apocalypse Mod (DOW SS) : Forum : Fan Thread : PRAAAISE THE BUNKERS!!!) Locked
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Sunfire315
Sunfire315 SUPREME GRAND INQUISITOR LORD
Aug 13 2016 Anchor

BEHOLD, THE MOST BEAUTIFULLY CRAFTED PIECE OF ARCHITECTURE...

THE EPITOME OF BALANCED GAMING...

THE EMBODIMENT OF FAIRNESS AND MODERATION...

THE INQUISITION BUNKER...OUR LORDZ 1

BEHOLD, FOR ONLY IT IS CAPABLE OF DEVASTATING OVER 50,000+ REQ WORTH OF TAU FOR THE LOW LOW PRICE OF 500 REQUISITION. FOR LO! IT IS BUILT FAST ENOUGH THAT EVEN THE FIRES OF COMBAT CAN SCARCE SLOW DOWN ITS GLORIOUS CONSTRUCTION...

IT IS TRULY A GIFT FROM THE GOD EMPEROR!!!

PRAISE THE GOD-BUNKER!!!

PRAISE BE TO THE GOD-BUNKER!!!

FOR TRULY THE GOD-BUNKER PROTECTS...



Aug 13 2016 Anchor

Au'taal Dorun, of Gan'zi

Yes. Hail the bunker. Honor it.

our lord

I was with my elite strike force. My greatest army yet. It was skilled, prepared, unbeatable... or so I thought.

After setting the territory and preparing my advance. I saw something in the distance.

A white box with golden decorations. Surely it had skulls on it. Typical religious humans.

I thought it was another pitiful defense post. One of the two are correct.

When we attacked their front line, we saw no prepared units. Just Grey Knights staring from behind their metal boxes.

We charged. and my troops never saw the light of day again

armydesecrated

I saw so much death that day. So many lives pointlessly wasted.

So much materials lost.

So much fire.

The seemingly indestructible buildings were able to destroy the barracuda squad without even shooting.

They looked like phoenixes.

noncontactfire

When the battle was over, SUPREME GRAND INQUISITOR LORD walked up to me and put his hand on my shoulder.

"Let me tell you something. Something about the GOD-BUNKER"

Never have I been so enlightened.

I have served the Greater Good for over 50 years.

It was for naught.

For there is no good greater than the bunker.

PRAISE THE GOD-BUNKER!!!

PRAISE BE TO THE GOD-BUNKER!!!

FOR TRULY THE GOD-BUNKER PROTECTS...

P

this is the power

Do you see this.

Do. You. See. This.

This is my first legit round playing as the inquisition.

All I had to do was create a chain of bunkers.

Cheap.

Fast.

Defensive.

Powerful.

God-Bunkers.

They were so overpowered that my opponent quit to stare at my glorious screen of flaming death. (the literal add-on btw)

I had so much requisition that I could spam those grey knights that I didn't even use.

This is the power of the bunker.

PRAISE THE GOD-BUNKER!!!

PRAISE BE TO THE GOD-BUNKER!!!

FOR TRULY THE GOD-BUNKER PROTECTS...

Edited by: coolestardude

Aug 16 2016 Anchor

Hahahahahahahhahahahah...

THE GOD-BUNKER PROTECTS

--

For the Imperium.

FOR THE EMPEROR!!! 

Aug 17 2016 Anchor

And this is why we didn't want unlimited turrets.

Catz_Rule
Catz_Rule Uhhh....
Aug 17 2016 Anchor

LOL! i like the new tau unit, the phoenix. Pity it isn't reborn after burning out. xD

--

Ummm....

Aug 23 2016 Anchor
Aug 27 2016 Anchor

Rhiania, of Shining Veil:

I WAS A FOOL!!! When I had heard the SUPREME GRAND INQUISITOR LORD proclaim that these… “bunkers” were the embodiment of the God-Emperor, I burned with righteous hatred. Such blasphemous claims must be purged with holy fire… to claim that the mere white boxes we used as fortifications WERE DIVINE INCARNATIONS OF THE GOD EMPEROR? Even amongst ranks of the venerable inquisition one can find foul heretics. Like the infamous Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau. (seriously was a thing). But SUPREME GRAND INQUISITOR LORD was no heretic… but a prophet of the God-Emperor himself.

We started off strong. We fortified points all around their base, and built a defensive chokehold

1

We were confident in our defenses, but we've fought alongside Lodge Pyrus many times before to know how they had a strange obsession with grey knights. Just looking at them gave me memories of… (shudder) the “bloodtide”(DARN YOU TO THE WARP MATT WARD!!!)

2

To expand our forces and box them in was the first task. We fortified the center relic. We had the true god, the burning fervor, the fire.

3

Fire is powerful.

And as we set up detectors, we saw unfamiliar defensive structures in the distance. We soon realized these were the bunkers.

4

There were just a few. Surely we could've taken care of them. But as time went on, the number of the defensive structures increased. We had to specialize squads against them

5

There were two things to worry about at once. Our rushing strike force, and the fortifications surrounding their base. We never thought our weapons could be on par with Grey Knights.

6

Then, while we were focused on the heated battle, an archivist flew into the fray. It built the defensive structure. Immediately. It was just a bunker. That was it. But it had flamers as well. Four of them. Spinning. This was not the first bunker. The archivist began to make bunker after bunker, until it was right next to my precious relic point. For whatever inscrutable reason, the God-Emperor had deigned it necessary for bunkers to project a control radius. “WHAT BLASPHEMY!!!” I thought. We had swarms of sentinel scout walkers and heavy flamers focused on it. The speed, defense, and power of this structure could not have been the work of man.

But it was simply viewed as another obstruction. We had more territory. More infantry. The advantage

Our relic fortifications did not diminish, but were replaced by our enemies' bunkers. I have never seen such a powerful structure built in such haste. I have seen imperator class titans do less.

Things started to leave our control. The bunkers were pushing into our defenses. The distractions allowed for them to deep strike in Grey Knights and Dreadnoughts. In a matter of minutes, we lost all our structures around the relic. With great reluctance we began to build BUNKERS, the tool of the enemy! HERESY OF THE HIGHEST ORDER!!!!!! I don't know how they did it. But they said they were blessed by the simple blueprints: a grey box.

But as we built bunkers, Lodge Pyrus made more. We tried sending rhino transports through, but not even the metal boxes could resist the flame from these bunkers. We couldn't break past. We were the ones who started to get boxed in.

Our fortifications left up in the north were specialized to destroy these defensive structures. We were finally starting to break them.

But for every bunker we damaged, two more were created. We started to believe that the archivists were possessed by daemons.

No amount of warriors could bring down these daemonic boxes. So many holy warriors, barely scratching the bunkers, and being reduced to ash.

There was nothing I could do to save them. All we could do was imitate them. We tried to build more bunkers. We thought they would work

But there was nothing helpful about ours. Their fires couldn't do nearly as much as our enemies'. We never thought we would see Lodge Pyrus leaving our warriors as piles of corpses.

We were starving on resources. We couldn't divide them amongst more of adepta sororitas bunkers and units. In the midst of our apocalyptic struggle, a mighty voice split the heavens...

I couldn't think of what it meant. We usually never lose morale. The emperor did not feel with us. It felt as if there was a new holy presence now. Then another different disembodied voice spoke.

I wasn't sure who the new voice was addressing. The other voice perhaps. But it we soon figured out from a death cult assassin that Lodge Pyrus had been building a CITY in their base. URBAN TERRITORY. They were willing to sacrifice LIVES OF INNOCENTS for building DEFENSES.

We sent lighting fighters. The fire surely couldn't reach the aerial fighters.

It didn't need to. Merely being in their presence made the fighters look like phoenixes.

After a while, they started to just look like flying balls of fire.

We had 8 pseudo-bunkers on the front line. Mines. Lots of infantry supporting the base. We may actually be able to defend ourselves.

The second voice boomed again.

Everyone agreed with it. There should never be so much faith placed in white boxes, littering and burning the land. Lodge Pyrus will pay for this Heresy.

We had the morale. We had the Faith. We had the living saints.

All they were doing now was shooting at our own inferior bunkers from across the hill.

Then the voice said something quite horrifying

There was only one HE that the voice could be referring to.

We've been through many a battle with Lodge Pyrus, and they have never achieved enough faith or enough resources to summon what they had that day. They had summoned the demigod the Grandmaster himself. What could they have possibly done to achieve this strength? We sent all our Saint at him. Our saints specialized to destroy commanders

They did nearly nothing. The inquisition is most powerful against daemons. But the demigod fought the complete opposite of daemons as if they were such.

The living saints were felled in a few blows. It was over. The victor of the Battle of Bunker Hill was now clear. Lodge Pyrus had triumphed over Shining Veil. This was the most tainted land I had ever seen.

I thought I was to be finished off. But the SUPREME GRAND INQUISITOR LORD walked up to me and put his hand on my shoulder.

"Let me tell you something. Something about the GOD-BUNKER"

Never have I felt so enlightened. The power the Emperor had given me was not nearly as much as the power of the bunker. Our Fervor Burns for the bunkers now. No strategy, no strength, no fire matters when you face them.

The Emperor has chosen a new god now.

PRAISE THE GOD-BUNKER!!!

PRAISE BE TO THE GOD-BUNKER!!!

FOR TRULY THE GOD-BUNKER PROTECTS

Edited by: coolestardude

Sep 8 2016 Anchor

Cylarne once explained in another thread that he wants turtle tactics. To be viable.

Sep 9 2016 Anchor

Well of course the bunker will kill units that aren't specialized to take out defenses.

Did the other guy even bring artillery or a titan or heavy ranged infantry?

I find the bunker is really lacking unless you build a lot of them (and that means you're giving up the inquisitions major advantage, the fact that they tech up quicker than other factions).

Sep 9 2016 Anchor

Artillery doesn't really do anything until T3 and only for certain factions - I wish I were kidding but Cylarne was really blunt about wanting turtles to have a safe environment to play RTS games in. The fact that Inquisition techs up faster and also earns resources more independently of the map means the God-Bunker is a whole lot less stupid than it sounds. You could probably build a bunch of bunkers pretty quickly before the enemy has titans when it's player versus player.

Obviously you can counter it if the map permits it, but on chokey maps or maps where both players are liable to hold equal halves of the map like you're seeing in these posts, it would be totally easy to spam OP stationary defenses and there's no drawbacks at all. In fact on most maps, after T0, you SHOULD spam stationary defenses anyway until T3 because turrets don't have real counters when they're cheaper than one Space Marine, they out-range all infantry, they out DPS all infantry, and tanks aren't allowed.

Edited by: Flamgino

Sep 11 2016 Anchor
Flamgino wrote:

Artillery doesn't really do anything until T3 and only for certain factions - I wish I were kidding but Cylarne was really blunt about wanting turtles to have a safe environment to play RTS games in. The fact that Inquisition techs up faster and also earns resources more independently of the map means the God-Bunker is a whole lot less stupid than it sounds. You could probably build a bunch of bunkers pretty quickly before the enemy has titans when it's player versus player.

Obviously you can counter it if the map permits it, but on chokey maps or maps where both players are liable to hold equal halves of the map like you're seeing in these posts, it would be totally easy to spam OP stationary defenses and there's no drawbacks at all. In fact on most maps, after T0, you SHOULD spam stationary defenses anyway until T3 because turrets don't have real counters when they're cheaper than one Space Marine, they out-range all infantry, they out DPS all infantry, and tanks aren't allowed.

Well wouldn't the drawback be that your opponent will be getting titans first. I mean inquisition titans aren't exactly better than everyone else. Either I'm missing something regarding the use of inquisition bunkers or the hard AI is really good at taking them out because bunkers really really don't do that much damage whenever I use them. Spamming the fires don't do much and if I don't get titans out first, then the AI will and my titans don't help that much what with all the bunker expenditures I made.

Really the god bunkers are comparable to imperial guard turrets walls, necron and tau turret walls (and the necrons have AOE splash knockback from amp gen and shield regenerating turrets). I just don't see the inquistion really having that much better defenses than anyone else. Other factions heavy defense costs 500 req so its keeping in line with the inquisitions main advantage, getting high tech things earlier than others. But that advantage comes at the price of the units and structures themselves not being as good as the other factions. From the screenshots themselves, your opponent didn't even attempt to stay out of the flame radius.

I mean plenty of factions have early building destroyers. Tau have the broadside suits. Space marines have their heavy weapons. Necron (aren't supposed to be rushing) but they can use immortals. Imperial guard has medusa. Chaos space marines get vindicator at tier 1! Eldar has fire dragons and wraithlords. Dark eldar get talos. And the only faction that would probably be screwed would be the tyranid since their gaunts would be useless. But even then they can get biovores and the gaunts still provide their hp bonus so carnifex spam would whittle your defense down efficently too.

Maybe the bunkers are OP but there's no evidence to suggest they're over-performing. It looks like your friend wasn't specifically targeting the bunkers and was a-moving. And that tends to screw units over when they are engaging defenses.

Sep 11 2016 Anchor

I, personally, feel that an easy solution to keep turtling viable, while also maintaining competitive sanity is simply add defensive restriction addon selections, like howvwe can select army size addons, but with turrets, bunkers, etc.


Why is this not a thing yet?


Sep 11 2016 Anchor

I believe that the turrets and population limits are too different for that.

Sep 11 2016 Anchor

Well wouldn't the drawback be that your opponent will be getting titans first. I mean inquisition titans aren't exactly better than everyone else. Either I'm missing something regarding the use of inquisition bunkers or the hard AI is really good at taking them out because bunkers really really don't do that much damage whenever I use them. Spamming the fires don't do much and if I don't get titans out first, then the AI will and my titans don't help that much what with all the bunker expenditures I made.

Most likely what you're missing is that you're fighting AI that's "harder" because it gets artificially inflated income, which is why it's damn bonkers to balance this game based on AI behavior or take advice from people who are playing with the AI and not with people. I can set four normal computers on a 4v1 and win the game with the God Bunker. I think if the AI were upgrading faster and able to build more troops out of the gate before I could dig in with the spam, I might not pull it off.

But the God Bunkers have 1.5 the health of HQ buildings, instant build time, high DPS, looks like AOE, high range, and they're a mere 250 requisition.

These are WAY OP versus human players. Players who are going to be on your level and NOT getting resource boosts. Especially if your fingers are fast enough to build them under cover of battle. IDH acolytes are only 10 req so you can fly a squad of them in to get a bunker up and they will succeed because the bunker is ready in five seconds.

Sep 12 2016 Anchor

@Flamingo: I don't think you received the message clearly, but this isn't a serious thread where people are actually praising the God Bunkers to be left in the mod (I think, though it is nice cheese) and they will be nerf-hammered.

Edited by: Lord_Cylarne

Sep 12 2016 Anchor
Flamgino wrote:

Well wouldn't the drawback be that your opponent will be getting titans first. I mean inquisition titans aren't exactly better than everyone else. Either I'm missing something regarding the use of inquisition bunkers or the hard AI is really good at taking them out because bunkers really really don't do that much damage whenever I use them. Spamming the fires don't do much and if I don't get titans out first, then the AI will and my titans don't help that much what with all the bunker expenditures I made.

Most likely what you're missing is that you're fighting AI that's "harder" because it gets artificially inflated income, which is why it's damn bonkers to balance this game based on AI behavior or take advice from people who are playing with the AI and not with people. I can set four normal computers on a 4v1 and win the game with the God Bunker. I think if the AI were upgrading faster and able to build more troops out of the gate before I could dig in with the spam, I might not pull it off.

But the God Bunkers have 1.5 the health of HQ buildings, instant build time, high DPS, looks like AOE, high range, and they're a mere 250 requisition.

These are WAY OP versus human players. Players who are going to be on your level and NOT getting resource boosts. Especially if your fingers are fast enough to build them under cover of battle. IDH acolytes are only 10 req so you can fly a squad of them in to get a bunker up and they will succeed because the bunker is ready in five seconds.

The hard Ai in dawn of war isn't supposed to cheat (in fact it doesn't) though in this mod I believe some AI like the necron get some cheats so they don't lose so badly (though I haven't noticed that because the necron AI doesn't really know how to respond to early aggression). So unless you play against Harder Ai, the AI doesn't cheat except by virtue of its unending patience, lack of fatigue and excellent micro and macro.

Oh I find it doubly funny that in another thread you're laughing about taking 4 CPUs at once and winning with a bunker only strategy (which I'm honestly surprised you even could). So how can you make the argument that AI's aren't humans but don't note that AIs lose to bunkers to by your own admission?

I'd also like to note that at 250 req you only get the bunker, it doesn't shoot back unless you upgrade it or garrison it. This means that it fulfills the role of walls and the IDH get it earlier than other factions.

Either way, it looks like the bunker's getting nerfed anyway. Probably it will be nerfed so that its flame upgrade comes at a later tier, or its flame upgrade doesn't stack with other bunkers, or you can't build a bunker right next to another bunker (this way you actually have to use IDH turrets).

I guess we'll call it the demi-god bunker lol.

Edited by: khoiman

Sep 12 2016 Anchor

@Flamingo: I don't think you received the message clearly, but this isn't a serious thread where people are actually praising the God Bunkers to be left in the mod (I think, though it is nice cheese) and they will be nerf-hammered.

They're clearly using comedy to mock their implementation and design, because honestly it's worthy of a good laugh and laughing is the only thing they can really do until you stop embracing stationary defenses as the pinnacle of the mod. I don't know why you don't start adding stationary vengeance cannon emplacements, to be honest - unjustifiably cheap T3 proofing against titans and super heavies so that every game has to be resolved with nukes.

Oh I find it doubly funny that in another thread you're laughing about taking 4 CPUs at once and winning with a bunker only strategy (which I'm honestly surprised you even could). So how can you make the argument that AI's aren't humans but don't note that AIs lose to bunkers to by your own admission?

If it surprises you, you aren't getting the point. "Hard" AI gets a resource boost that lets them establish faster while holding less ground. They build more troops and tech up faster, and this is to make up for their lack of tactical and strategic ability. On the other hand, the "normal" computer gets a regular amount of resources and therefore can't outpace a human, and they'll easily loose to a thinking human because the human has a fluid, changing plan while the computer is following a route series of instructions.

Four normal computers versus one human essentially means you've set the system up to bury yourself alive in waves of stupid bodies, but those waves are all going to be at the same tech tier as you rather than a step ahead because they aren't getting abnormal boosts. If four armies at once can't brute force through a stationary defense built by one player just by a-clicking, you might be looking at an OP defense.

I'd go into detail why your "counters" don't actually counter a defensive wall like this, but since you listed titans as a viable counter I figure we'd have a lot to discuss because I don't know how you're building titans before the IDH finish their Gray Knights barracks. We're talking about what is probably a T1 structure, you know.

Sep 12 2016 Anchor
Flamgino wrote:

@Flamingo: I don't think you received the message clearly, but this isn't a serious thread where people are actually praising the God Bunkers to be left in the mod (I think, though it is nice cheese) and they will be nerf-hammered.

They're clearly using comedy to mock their implementation and design, because honestly it's worthy of a good laugh and laughing is the only thing they can really do until you stop embracing stationary defenses as the pinnacle of the mod. I don't know why you don't start adding stationary vengeance cannon emplacements, to be honest - unjustifiably cheap T3 proofing against titans and super heavies so that every game has to be resolved with nukes.

Oh I find it doubly funny that in another thread you're laughing about taking 4 CPUs at once and winning with a bunker only strategy (which I'm honestly surprised you even could). So how can you make the argument that AI's aren't humans but don't note that AIs lose to bunkers to by your own admission?

If it surprises you, you aren't getting the point. "Hard" AI gets a resource boost that lets them establish faster while holding less ground. They build more troops and tech up faster, and this is to make up for their lack of tactical and strategic ability. On the other hand, the "normal" computer gets a regular amount of resources and therefore can't outpace a human, and they'll easily loose to a thinking human because the human has a fluid, changing plan while the computer is following a route series of instructions.

Four normal computers versus one human essentially means you've set the system up to bury yourself alive in waves of stupid bodies, but those waves are all going to be at the same tech tier as you rather than a step ahead because they aren't getting abnormal boosts. If four armies at once can't brute force through a stationary defense built by one player just by a-clicking, you might be looking at an OP defense.

I'd go into detail why your "counters" don't actually counter a defensive wall like this, but since you listed titans as a viable counter I figure we'd have a lot to discuss because I don't know how you're building titans before the IDH finish their Gray Knights barracks. We're talking about what is probably a T1 structure, you know.

Uh do you even know how the AI works in DOW? The normal AI gets 20% penalty to resources. The Hard AI is the same as a human player in terms of resources. You can test this easy by just starting a game and then quitting.

You were fighting 4 normal computers. So you were fighting opponents that were 20% less than you in terms of resources in a game where that seriously prevents the AI from teching up and then saying that the bunker is OP because it beats low tier units.

I'd go into detail why your "counters" don't actually counter a defensive wall like this

It's because you couldn't be bothered to actually play the other races or know important things like how the AI works isn't it? You spend literally every post insulting people and acting smug. How exactly do you expect other posters to take you seriously? You encourage other players to not test things out or actually try playing the game and figure out how to use certain units.

Edited by: khoiman

Sep 12 2016 Anchor

Uh do you even know how the AI works in DOW? The normal AI gets 20% penalty to resources. The Hard AI is the same as a human player in terms of resources. You can test this easy by just starting a game and then quitting.

You were fighting 4 normal computers. So you were fighting opponents that were 20% less than you in terms of resources in a game where that seriously prevents the AI from teching up and then saying that the bunker is OP because it beats low tier units.

That's unintuitive and doesn't sound right, but I've got good news for you. After double-checking my settings, my AI is set to hard. So point still stands. Harder AI than the one I play with gets a resource boost, so if you're only playing with "hard" AI and you can't get those bunkers up in time, it must be because you're rushing that T1 titan or something because it is not hard at all to bunker spam.

It's because you couldn't be bothered to actually play the other races or know important things like how the AI works isn't it? You spend literally every post insulting people and acting smug. How exactly do you expect other posters to take you seriously? You encourage other players to not test things out or actually try playing the game and figure out how to use certain units.

Nah chief. It's because of the way all defensive buildings work in every RTS game. They're always more cost-effective than the units they're defending against because they have the strategic drawback of being stationary. If they weren't more cost-effective then there'd be no point in building them. But Cylarn takes that philosophy to the next level.

You cannot pass my bunkers with basic infantry, so I don't need to waste resources building troops to fight your infantry. All I need are some anti-tank guys to slaughter your early tier "counters". The grenadiers have range on you and anti-vehicle weapons. The Tau present a bit of a problem because the broadsides have such a long range, but that's as potent as it gets and they can be counter-attacked too. Aside from that, you're neglecting the fact that acolytes can jump and build new bunkers instantly, and you're forgetting about auto-repair, and you're forgetting repair servitors. And you're forgetting the massive resource advantage IDH has from urban development centers.

Look, you're acting astonished by someone roflstomping the AI. Unless you're playing Sisters and trying to use their infantry past T1, I don't know how you lose to the AI and then try to talk balance like, "Oh, no just build a titan. Or a nuke. Or talk your opponent into surrendering. That all usually prevents this T1 structure from being OP."

If you can't abuse IDH bunker spam, practice your early eco and micro until you can and you'll see what I'm talking about. If you find the enemy is building too many vehicles or something then upgrade your turrets.

Sep 12 2016 Anchor

Yup I just tested a 3V3 versus hard AI (2 AI on my team + me versus 3 AI) and did the heavy bunker wall strategy. Didn't work.

Oh and as a bonus most of the units I mentioned showed up. Vindicators and space marines with heavy weapons. Turns out the eldar can use scourges and the chaos have blight drones and other nasty things that wreck turret lines.

Oh and you won't be able to guess how it happened. It turns out I spent so much req making the bunker wall that my titan transition was delayed and then we got wrecked because my titans come out way slower than everyone else elite units and IDH titans aren't that good so when I did get them they didn't do much.

I also decided to build stormtroopers and paladins just to see how overpowered they were. They didn't last very long.

Am I missing something here because I thought the god bunker was literally the manifestation of the god emperor himself and that it destroyed all competitive balance?

Here's a replay just to show how bad the bunker strategy really is. I also find the OP story hard to believe (I know it supposed to be humorous but its clear some people are taking it seriously). If someone plays IDH for their first time, why would they build nothing but bunkers and not only that but why wouldn't they get steamrolled considering that IDH has very few good units. The story also says the bunkers were built in less than 5 seconds (not possible maybe with the upgrade) and they fired flames immediately (definitely not possible).

1drv.ms

As for my thoughts on the bunker:

1. Its a cheap unit and its spamable and as noted its very resilent. Its meant to stop rushes but quite frankly the IDH scholar is so good I think the bunker should be more expensive or at the least have a limit so players can't just make a wall and bore their opponent to death. I mean if a player has enough ranged firepower to kill the bunkers with no damage. They have enough fire power to kill a IDH titan and IDH elite grey knight infantry. So really all the bunker does is just delay the inevitable.

2. The Inquisition are a rush faction. So my bet was the bunker was meant to be quickly deployed at the front-lines to aid rush strategies (i.e cap a strat point near enemy base, build the bunker in 15 seconds by a single archivist and then garrison the infantry). However the problem is that archivists are too fragile but cost too little to make it problematic to lose them. So the problem is that the bunker will only get used defensively (and in annoying walls) because archivists just can't get anywhere near enemies without dying). Thus you will only see bunkers near the IDH HQ or in certain instances where a player had a blindspot.

3. The Bunker bolter upgrade is worthless. It does too little damage and the fire upgrade just does so much more.

4. The fire upgrade is 50 req and 200 power (IIRC). so its not too expensive but the key to stop bunker spam is that that the bunker has only 6k hp without any upgrades. So if the upgrade time were lengthened it could go a long way to stopping annoying bunker spam.

5. The fire attack is way too blinding. 3 or more going off grantees that the anything on the ground cannot be seen. Also the animation implies that friendly fire would be a huge problem.

6. I think the bunker does too much for too little. Perhaps the first bunker should be more expensive. Consider the following:

-The bunker is a tech building that allows non-grey knight infantry to be upgraded with leader units

-The bunker can be garrisoned to protect vital units

-The bunker can be upgraded to shoot things and still shoots things if its garrisoned

-The bunker is a cheap and strong wall that's available early

-The bunker also can deepstrike certain units

That's a lot of a uses for something so cheap. Perhaps the libarium should have a upgrade that allows bunkers before allowing players to just drop these things everywhere.

All in all though I still find that the bunker isn't really broken, its just an annoying unit that players can troll others with by making the game excessively long. It's like back in dark crusade when eldar players could just teleport base everywhere. Granted unlike the Eldar teleport situation, defeat is inevitable for IDH with bunker spam. And if you're really really dumb enough to be taking units into the flamethrower range, then its not because the bunker is OP (no it really isn't, even with like 10 of them going off at once, elite infantry can survive several minutes worth of fire) that you're not having success.

Before you complain about IDH bunker walls, try necron turret walls, try tau turret walls. Try any turret wall.

Look, you're acting astonished by someone roflstomping the AI.

Please quote the exact part where I acted astonished when anyone beats an AI.

The grenadiers have range on you and anti-vehicle weapons. The Tau present a bit of a problem because the broadsides have such a long range, but that's as potent as it gets and they can be counter-attacked too. Aside from that, you're neglecting the fact that acolytes can jump and build new bunkers instantly, and you're forgetting about auto-repair, and you're forgetting repair servitors. And you're forgetting the massive resource advantage IDH has from urban development centers.

Grenadiers suck. They have low Hp and die very quickly. So my response to a squad of chaos space marines guarding a vindicator should be to send them straight into the gun fire and get killed trying to take out an armored vehicle? My response to deathwatch and heavy bolters should be to send a squad of grenaiders who won't beat them at all?. How exactly do you counter attack a broadside suit backed up by stealth suits, tau firewarriors? If that happens you don't really have many opportunities aside from scholar spam. You keep calling them acolytes, I believe you mean Archivist. Archivist can jump but they have little HP. Try jumping in to a bunker line while the enemy is slamming it with everything they've got. He's not going to build a bunker instantly (and I'm sure that's hyperbole too); he's not going to build anything at all either.

Auto-repair barely healths a structure that's under decent fire. Servitors can repair but again they're gonna get killed doing it. The massive resource advantage doesn't mean anything because you're spending it all on bunkers.

All I need are some anti-tank guys to slaughter your early tier "counters".

Yeah those anti-tank guys will slaughter those early tier "counters". Yeah totally including the ones that will be escorted by anti-infantry and the fact that IDH anti-tank really isn't very good. Oh and those anti-tank guys will totally beat the infantry counters I mentioned /s

Unless you're playing Sisters and trying to use their infantry past T1, I don't know how you lose to the AI and then try to talk balance like, "Oh, no just build a titan. Or a nuke. Or talk your opponent into surrendering. That all usually prevents this T1 structure from being OP."

I demand you post your 1 V 4 match with bunkers and show me just what the hell happened? I just lost a 3 V 3. A practically balanced 3 V 3. I've asked you nicely to show me how to use bunkers and all you've insinuated is that I don't know how to play game despite knowing more technical details than you do. I've asked for evidence and done research and all you've done is insult me and cylarn.

Edited by: khoiman

Sep 12 2016 Anchor

They have enough fire power to kill a IDH titan and IDH elite grey knight infantry. So really all the bunker does is just delay the inevitable.

It is. A T1. Structure.

It's available right after you build the Gray Knights barracks and you can rush that with a gaggle of cheap-as-dirt acolytes. What the heck are you doing Koiman? How are you building these so late into the game that titans and titan-killers are a legit counter to them? Seriously, what the heck?

My advice to you is to just chill out about it because clearly these and indeed most units probably aren't really a factor in your play style.

Sep 12 2016 Anchor
Flamgino wrote:

They have enough fire power to kill a IDH titan and IDH elite grey knight infantry. So really all the bunker does is just delay the inevitable.

It is. A T1. Structure.

It's available right after you build the Gray Knights barracks and you can rush that with a gaggle of cheap-as-dirt acolytes. What the heck are you doing Koiman? How are you building these so late into the game that titans and titan-killers are a legit counter to them? Seriously, what the heck?

My advice to you is to just chill out about it because clearly these and indeed most units probably aren't really a factor in your play style.

You're not reading what I wrote. I said an army that's curbstomping the bunkers will quickly pierce your base and kill you.

This is because you spent so much on the bunker wall that you even if you get a titan. Its too little too late. Go watch the replay I posted. The titan came out and it was too little too late.

If you're spaming bunkers all your doing is going on the defensive. And at the point you're letting your enemy tech up and then kill you with their elite units because your elite unit aren't as good as theirs.

Edited by: khoiman

Sep 12 2016 Anchor

If you're spaming bunkers all your doing is going on the defensive. And at the point you're letting your enemy tech up and then kill you with their elite units because your elite unit aren't as good as theirs.

Do you think it's possible that you are doing something wrong.

Try chaining them like the guys in the pictures so that you're pressuring the enemy with them, and try to build them before the enemy reaches T4.

Sep 12 2016 Anchor
Flamgino wrote:

If you're spaming bunkers all your doing is going on the defensive. And at the point you're letting your enemy tech up and then kill you with their elite units because your elite unit aren't as good as theirs.

Do you think it's possible that you are doing something wrong.

Try chaining them like the guys in the pictures so that you're pressuring the enemy with them, and try to build them before the enemy reaches T4.

You're... not reading what I'm wring are you? I am building them before T4. I am building as fast as I can build them. You're not reading. If that's case then I'm done talking to you. Watch the replay.

I will repeat myself for the last time. Spending req on the bunkers slows you're progression to T4. And any sane enemy can kill your bunkers while taking little to no losses. If the enemy reaches T4 before you do, then you're garanteed to lose because at this point the bunker wall is worthless and your T4 units are useless should you get them anyway.

Also I'm pretty sure you're just trolling at this point because the guys in the pictures? They're at T4. You can see the statue of the emperor in the first pic. This is a joke thread.

Sep 14 2016 Anchor

Here's a link to a replay, Khoiman:
Mediafire.com

I got drunk and lazily crushed two allied "hard' computers using offensive bunker spam. You'll notice the Tau's ally tried to counter-attack but was totally helpless to bust through those bunkers because it wasn't at the late T3 stage for them. Eventually I had one too many beers and lost my edge, so it kind of slips and stalls out towards the end while I spam relic units, but I was NEVER in danger of the AI beating me. Pushing the 'o' button does not require a ton of cognizance.

The joke in this thread is about how broken stationary defenses are. A lot of units past the T1 stage are not balanced well at all because every faction relies on stationary defenses as a massive crutch. Like, I can't even beat a hard computer 1v1 with Sisters of Battle in the latest version if I use their infantry rather than their turrets because they're tissue paper post T1. The whole mod is a normal game until T1, at which point you establish stationary defenses, and then you wait.

Except IDH, who can build those bunkers at blinding speed and leapfrog the things right into the enemy base for so, so many poor design reasons.

You can do this 4v1 too, but it's a lot harder, and not while drinking.

Edited by: Flamgino

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