Limit Turrets? Thread - Ultimate Apocalypse Mod (DOW SS) for Dawn of War

In version 1.86.3, turrets were limited due to a slow growth of complaints and an entire thread (which appears to have vanished) was created in conversation about it, plus opinions were shared back and forth, so I was convinced to limit the amounts of turrets in 1.86.3.

Some people did not like the change, thought it was a bad idea. So shall I roll back or keep it as is next version? Should turrets contain a limit which can be increased by the amount of headquarters you build? Or should turrets be free for all unlimited?

Below, explain your reasoning. And why you want turrets limited/unlimited in Ultimate Apocalypse mod. If the conversation is much to think on. Every version (if possible), if a vote is higher in percentage, I'll routinely switch between unlimited turrets/limited turrets per HQ. So you may wanna come back to see if turrets are limited in x version!

The majority wins. If there are 75 votes higher than one another, the change will stay official in UA forever.

PLEASE DO NOT FORGET TO VOTE ABOVE. ^^

Edited by: Lord_Cylarne

I middle-ground could be to allow some factions to have unlimited turrets.

IG in particular suffers a lot

Thank you Lord Cylarne for updating the game with further balances and for making a great mod. On the subject of limiting turrets, I agree with Tal-Elmar. I feel that with the turret restriction placed on the Imperial Guard, their defensive capabilities are penalized greatly. Being a Imperial Guard player, its harder to hold ground and to play turtle tactics with the limit placed on the amount of Earthshaker cannons and turrets. I found great joy in being able play the Imperial Guard defensively by building multiple Earthshaker batteries supported with turrets to hold onto strategic points. To me it's one of many of the best abilities IG has, which is being able to take ground and hold it. However, with the turret restriction placed on the IG, I am forced to build multiple hqs in order to build enough supply of turrets and artillery emplacements. This is not really fun because it required additional micromanaging just to exploit what was to suppose to be a strength for the Imperial Guard. Now, I can agree that unlimited turrets can lead to abuse but for the IG, its something that complements their lore and not only that but their in game strength. To me it what makes them Imperial Guard- the ability to take ground and hold it to "the last man and round". I would say that the IG shouldn't be restricted to 8 turrets per hq or 3 artillery emplacements per hq.

Edited by: deafkid

i should said before this patch,of course if it is posible, to add wincondition 10 or 7 turets per base??

Well, I don't know what is the problem: the amount of turrets or if this will be spammed in the field like "rush tactics". I don't care the amount od turrets can be fielded my problem is where it's placed; I really want these can be place out the control zone. If the problem is the "rush tactic" sometime ago I give you (Lord Cylarne) a possible solution that would be avoid build turrets inside a radius (you could determinate how much) around the enemy HQ like in Age of Mythology where you can build another HQ around a enemy HQ (in UA maybe only the first HQ at the beggining of the game, not the other HQs constructed). Briefly, I really want unlimited turrets: As I ever said, "defensives races like IG need a lot of turrets to defend a base" not only 8 for each HQ.

i should said before this patch,of course if it is posible, to add wincondition 10 or 7 turets per base??

Not possible. Winconditions cannot affect limitation or squad caps.

I really want these can be place out the control zone

Sorry nope. If you want free turret placements outside of bases, then get the turret freeplace mod.

Unable to build in enemy control radiuses is also impossible.

I personally hate the idea of unlimited turrets. I said so in the past and explained why in detail. I think it's a poor design decision that reinforce bad habits in players and restrict the strategic aspect of the game. After all, why try options A, B, and C, when option D is clearly better than all of the others?

But at this point, restricting turrets is like trying to get the kids out of the candy factory. Why would they want to go, even if they end up with mouthfuls of cavities? It's candies! YAY!

If turrets are to be restricted, then a wincon needs to be put together to remove this restriction for players who do not want it. That seem to be the most logical way to manage it. Otherwise, if possible, as Mauritos said, a wincon that sets a cap on turrets could also work. This option also allows enterprising players to tweak the numbers by updating the SCAR file to their liking.

Edited by: Galrick

The way I see it, Galrick has hit it spot-on:

Galrick wrote:

If turrets are to be restricted, then a wincon needs to be put together to remove this restriction for players who do not want it. That's seem to be the most logical way to manage it. Otherwise, if possible, as Mauritos said, a wincon that sets a cap on turrets could also work. This option also allows enterprising players to tweak the numbers by updating the SCAR file to their liking.

Normally, I don't use turrets that much, Necrons and IG being the only exception. As Necrons I normally build the Heavy Gauss Turrets, at least until I can get Pylons, while as IG I spam turrets only with 1 of 3 of my usual playstyles. The most obvious advantage of having limited turrets would be an at least somewhat easier to defeat AI, as they spam turrets at the back of the base, where they are difficult to reach while devestating any attack. So, I have reasons to dislike unlimited turrets, but also reasons to like them - and of course reasons not to care at all.

Long story short: If possible, make it optional, no matter how exactly, though wincondition seems most logical/most convenient to use. If this is not possible, limit them. The advantages of limited turrets far outweigh the advantages of unlimited turrets.

EDIT: Having re-read Lord Cylarne's initial post, I would like to ask of you to take these propositions into account, no matter what the result of the poll. After all, this poll satisfies one part of the players, while the others are unsatisfied. So, as "marketing strategy" it would obviously be advantageous for you to try and please both sides.

Edited by: Vvacjrier

In the Ultimate Apocalypse mod there is no limits, so i vote yes.

from a pure balance concern i have to say limit per hq or make a research that increases turret limit. if turrets are uncapped the only way to balance is if you make crappy turrets and that is unfun as well. would you play a match with no unit limits? if not, for any reason, then turrets should be limited too. i can list several reasons. diminishing the power of units concerns. engine crash concerns. anti fun concerns (admittedly an opinion, some people like tower defense). different races having different turret strength concerns(looking at you necrons). the idea of fun and balanced if everybody plays fair doesnt work. if it can be abused it will. if the house rule is always dont unlimited spam, then why is unlimited spam an option. personally i like the research to increase cap idea. it could be left unlimited but with exponentially increasing cost. that would limit effectiveness by introducing greater opportunity cost. also by slowing down the rate that an entire map can be covered in turrets you increase the vulnerability to things like titans and artillery. i also understand the love of unlimited turrets but i would have to hazard a guess that most of those players play against a lot of ai. you have to understand that the ai has much, much more resources than you. the only way you beat the ai is by being more efficient or by getting a game ender. so if an ai makes 3 times more resources than you and you still win by spamming turrets then think about introducing that efficiency to a pvp environment. admittedly the human players are likely to build smarter but i find turret spam to be much cheaper than the things needed to stop it (artillery or titans). i also find that the counters are inneffective if the turret spam goes on for more than 10 minutes or so do to turrets being the only thing that is unlimited. people say that this mod is about being unlimited but that isnt true. we all still bow to max squad/vehicle/relic cap. so why dont turrets have a max?

Edited by: dracmage

I voted 'Yes', but you could make it be both at the same time. Make it limited at least until the player has at least 2~3 HQs built. Add some upgrade or some other condition, like the number of built HQs or something, that would unlock the "unlimited amount".

Otherwise the best way right now would be to make a win condition. But those can't be used outside skirmish matches (sp, mp).
So with a possible future working campaign in mind the best way would be to implement some conditions like the examples I wrote.

Let's say that for the sake of discussion we look at numbers...

In broad terms, it can be surmised that the early game is Tier 0 and 1, that the mid game is Tier 2 and 3, and that the late game is Tier 4 and 5. Now let's say that a player builds on average an extra HQ in Tier 1, and one more every other tiers. That gives us 2 HQ in the early game, 3 HQ in the mid game, and 4 HQ in the late game. Again, in "broad terms".

So with the proposed cap of 8 turrets per HQ, that gives us 16, 24 and 32 turrets, not counting any advanced turrets. That's a fair amount. Add to that the possibility of actually having a higher cap, depending on player feedback and developer prerogative, or even of a research (if such a thing is possible) that increase the cap by (let's say) 25% or 50%, and I don't see how having a hard cap on turrets is actually restrictive. 16, 24, 32 turrets! How many of the blasted things do you need? Personally I only see such a cap as a way to prevent turret spam and excessive turtling.

Now, while I will respect someone's preferences about having no cap on turrets, I strongly disagree with the concept of the UA mod being all about "having no limits". There are limits everywhere: the Requisition and Power income limit how much can be build, there's a cap on on how many generators an HQ can support, on how much Relics can be accumulated, and on how many Infantry and Vehicle units can be fielded.

Personally, I don't see any of the previously mentioned limits as a bad thing. If I want more generators, I build an extra HQ. If I want to raise my Infantry/Vehicle cap, I build such and such building or get such and such research. I plan for these things; I strategize for them. And I think that turrets should be held to the same standards. Yes, economy will limit how many can be built, but unfairness and abuse will often creep in before that limit is reached.

If you're going to limit turrets per HQ then you also have to remove gun emplacements from walls. Or make a unit that kills walls, Like the sappers from Forge World In Imperial Armor Vol 2 The Siege of Vraks; The Death Korps Engineers. But that sounds like more trouble than it's worth. Also the deepstrike turrets have to be limited in some way. Having them count one against the support cap would make them used only with extreme prejudice. Instead of having them spammed all over the place.

No limit please! If people or the AI turtles against you, just get artillery and bomb those turrets. I don't see why unlimited turrets should be a problem here! After all they do cost a lot and are static. Two downsides right there.

Edited by: Njorunn

Maybe just make this implementable via a win condition. I love having a limit in pvp multiplayer cos it stops the crazy amount of unskilled turtling.

That said, I don't mind them being unlimited, as long as they aren't so strong that a competent aggressive player has a fair chance of breaking through the turrets of a similarly skilled defensive player.

To9thecreeperorc wrote:

In the Ultimate Apocalypse mod there is no limits, so i vote yes.

No limits... Bah

Said the same for the Vindicare Assassins... No limits!

"personally i like the research to increase cap idea. it could be left unlimited but with exponentially increasing cost"

This guys idea is great

Looks like the poll speaks for itself. Unlimited turrets will hopefully be back! \o/

Thank you everybody for your feedback about this! I will say this: I WILL TRY my dangest to meet both unlimited and limited requests united. Due to DOW engine limits, there is only a handful of options I can do. But, in the future, I will think of something indeed!

After seeing your video with the necron player that just spammed walls all game long and won, I think there definitely has to be some kind of limitation... cheesiest strat I've ever seen.

I Like having turrets in the game as I like having defensive tool to save vital targets while using my army fro strikes. Turrets should only be a good time bying defensive option though. I hate games that make them so powerful/numerous that they erase the importance of your actual army on the field. Your necron video showcased this very well. I think it is in your best interests to remove peoples ability to cheese in the first place. The recent patch with the # limitation on turrets per HQ felt perfect to me. They are still a tool I can use but they don't control the whole game themselves.

If you are set on making them more spammable then there definitly needs to be an option on every race to shut them down HARD! so that those who try to rely on them as their sole unit can be punished by the opponent severely. The problem in that video especially is that those towers destroy every unit you throw at them. What I would have expected is that if you went at them with a pack of rocket wielding infantry they should have melted like butter letting the other units through to deal with his army choices and if he didn't have army units then that would be pretty dumb on his part. I really dislike units that don't have a weakness to be exploited, it leads to lazy uninteresting play. Turrets should be great for acting as delay defense, giving you time to get some troops back in a position to help out. They should never be an army unto themselves.

Gentlemanly games are rare in my experience, even my best friends have been tempted from time to time to just push for a win and resort to using less than friendly/fun tactics to do it. Taking those choices away just leads to a more enjoyable environment for everyone.

I'm glad to hear that Commanders are being toned back as well as for a long while they fell into that super power camp where the resources you needed to invest to take them down even with the best counter option was just silly. They should be powerful but something you have to watch and manage as its a big loss if they go down.

Want to add that i absolutely love your mod (more than ever since 1.86) and really feel like every iteration has brought it closer and closer to pefection. Thanks for all the hard work!

Treliant

Edited by: Treliant

I feel that limited turrets help to keep turret spam from happening but there should be a wincondition that unlocks them.

Super minority here probably, but my games are usually with friends who can both control themselves when it comes to turret spam and also enjoy cracking fortress style defense lines. Latest updates with limited turrets required me to manually edit the mod for our games. I gave up on that after the third or so time we ended up with mismatched files. We also miss the free turret placement but that's neither here nor there in terms of this poll and I could only imagine the stuff people did to abuse that online.

Voted in support of unlimited turrets.

Edited by: MystiaLorelei

It is confirmed as of this point, turrets will forever be unlimited!

Hey Cylarne, would it be possible to do turrets like Necron power generators with the increased cost per turret built? I think that may help balance the spam early game, while still making them useful late game.