Assorted Feedback on various races/units/ideas Thread - Ultimate Apocalypse Mod (DOW SS) for Dawn of War

So, I've been playing this mod for about a year now, give or take, and while Ive been absolutely loving what this mod brings to the table, there are a few concerns, a few suggestions, and a few brainstorming ideas that I'd like to bring to the table. Let it be known that I have only played Vs the AI, and also that I'm typing from my phone, so I'm sorry about the following grammatical clusterfuck.

I should note, that I'm in no way an expert at RTS games, nor an expert at balancing anything, amd that I'm simply propossing these ideas based on my personal experience/observation. I'm also going to piggyback off of an idea or two of other posters, and won't be bothered to credit them with their original idea, because I dont want to lose my place while tyoing on my phone.

With that out of the way, here goes:

The grot gang (Orkz): While this units very existence irritates me for reasons, I think my biggest complaint with them is the volume at which a player hears their screaming when one of them is killed when NOT playing as the Orkz. I.e, when playing as Space Marines, the volume of a grot gang member dying is so loud, it actually hurts my ears, and is literally louder than every other single sound in the mod that Ive heard. Please take a look at this again. Orkz are my favorite faction to fight, but I literally move the camera away from an engagement when dealing with grots because the sound of them dying literally gives me a headache.

Next Unit...

Space Marine Sternguard: as it stands, to me, these guys are just a slightly beefier, slightly better DPS version of the devestators that can have 4 attachables. This is redundant, and redundant units are bad because then why ever pick one vs the other. To distinguish them from other units, why not give the Sternguard more range? They have scopes on their bolters after all, they also have drum mags so why not also give them longer burst durations (if thats even possible/isnt already inplemented). Basically, what Im trying to suggest here is to give the player a reason NOT to take heavy weapons all the time, with all units. Give me a reason not to take plasma or HB on all my units. To that end, can we have the option to select their (or even regular tactical marines) with the option to have different ammubition instead of an entirely new upgrade? Think of the Gladiator Squad using the various ammunitions it can pick from. The icons are already there, the values are already there, just need the option for other units to have them. I feel this would add great opportunity to keep players from spamming plasma weapons over something so inferior.

As it stands, youre only gimping yourself by not taking weapons. I feel like plasma and heavy bolters rule the battlefield, and standard weapons are completely obsolete past tier 1. You could argue that heavy bolters have a set up time, but this is completely negated by tabky units going in first, amd then transporting devestators behind them, eliminating the risk of having to stop and set up their weapons.

Tactical Space Marines: When compared to Assault Marines, these guys are just so lackluster. I get that theyre beefy as hell, but beefiness doesnt amount to much if their damage output with bolters is absolutely negligible pre plasma. Like really, these guys fucking struggle killing grots with cannons without weapon replacements, such as plasma or heavy bolters, because between the time it takes to kill two/three grots, two grot teams have fucking destroyed them, and broke their morale, and between how fast the cannons fire, how long it takes Tacticals (anyone) to get back up, how short their range is, and how far they can get flung, I just fucking cant. Ive come to terms, iys not necessarily the grot cannon teams thats the problem here necessarily (in my opinion), it's the tac marines range, aling with how far a cannon can/will fling them away, which starts the process of eunning to them all over again. And I promise you, cannon damage adds up hella quick. Which, would inecitably make the Sternguard Marines even more distinguished, and add even more incentive to get (see: increased bolter range, previous unit talking point).

Space Marine Scouts: these units, when equipped with snipers, feel so inferior to every other races (that Ive played) sniper units. They just feel so bad in comparison. They do less damage than other races snipers, theyre move about the same speed, and they shoot significantly slower. What the fuck? Lol. Am I just imagining this shit, because it sure doesnt look like it. That being said, I feel like Scouts with bolters, or even shotguns, is highly underrated.

Plasma weapons in general:

Here's the thing: plasma weapons straight up wreck everything. As a semi decent player, I can wipe out an entire map with just two squads of guardsmen (standard guardsmen) with plasma weapons. Why the fuck would I ever take flamers to break morale, when I can just kill the ever living shit out of infantry instead, not to mention vehicles/light/medium armor at a further distance than meltas can, or at a faster rate than meltas can? The Imperial Guard are especially prone to this plasma spam, because their infantry shoot farther than, say, Space Marines. Now, I love the Imp Guard in this mod, i really do, but why even bother with flamers, meltas, grenade launchers (with the exception of stun grenades) when I can get one gun that does it all? I'm not saying nerf the plasma gun, but nerf the plasma gun. That, or buff the other weapons. Add an increased chance for knockback for the launchers, increase the damage over time for inferno launchers, increase the damage of flamers against light units, something, please, anything.

Which reminds me:

Space Marine Dreadnaughts: The inferno cannon, and the assault cannon, on this thing, dont feel like they do anything at all to the targets their intended against. They really dont. The dps value lists the assault cannon in the 200's, yet it feels like it takes even longer to kill GROTS than a fully reinforced tactical squad. Why? Am I just imagining this too? Please, double check these things for yourself, dont take my qord for it, maybe I'm wrong.

I'm just saying, it's boring going for the same strategy (plasma) every time because it's the best, and that's plasma guns on guardsmen once available, which does not take long at all.

I'm sure I'll come up with more later, but that's all i got for now. Thanks in advance.

Of course, as developers, you are obviously free to do whatever you wish with your mod, as its your creation, I just want to make it (in my opinion) even better than what it is. So, if i appear a little intense, it's partly out of frustration at redundancy, but also a lack of viability amongst all these cool (fucking awesome) additions to the mod.

Good day.

To note: I'd be happy to debate these talking points, and should in no way be considered my end final stance on these talking points.

One more thing: the missionary, the hospitallier, and the Imagifier. What does the Imagifier do? She has no description in her tool tip.

As for the missionary and the hospitallier, can we make the hospitallier's Healing ability (Lay on Hands is it?) affect other squads in the vicinity? In other works, making the Hospitalliers healing AoE whereas the missionaries healing is per the squad he's attached to. That, along with increasing the rate at which the Hospitalliers healing heals i feel would distinguish the missionary from the Hospittalier. As it stands, it seems like the missionary is the only one worth picking out of these two.

Also, can we get the option to produce Hospitalliers and Imagifiers seperately (like we can with the apothecary/standard bearer)? Thanks.

Balance has always been an issue with RTS games, and this game + UA is no exception. The mod team does the best that they can to fix bugs, make balance changes, and so on. For example, I think the IG need a mid and late game buff, but it only a matter of opinion. As for the Grots, I agree that the sound is louder than most others, but its not painfully loud (for me at least). I also agree that default weapons on most units, (especially on SM, IG, and IDH) seem to be lackluster. SM scouts are probably the worst early game scouting unit in the game, and I actually buffed them slightly for my friend, just sharply increasing hp and dmg, and they became MUCH more useful.

But it all comes down to what the mod team wants, and if they disagree, their is nothing we can do but make a stink about it

The Emperor Protects!

Guard need a fair few buffs, so do a fair few other factions.

Also Guard tanks need a fairly large heath or damage boost. Basilisk needs a serious friggin damage boost to like 250 or so, its useless as is.

Bolt speed: Im glad im not the only one that thinks vanilla weapons on units feel lackluster.

Honestly, a little fine tune balancing and lowering grot gang death sounds when fighting against orks would really push thisbmod to the top for me.

I cant say basilisks are good or bad because i mostly use medusa, amd that thing is amazing.

As for scouts, their bolt pistols are definately ass.

The imperial guard tanks feel fine if you dont bother with standard leman russ from vic factory and go for all the tank factory variant, which is where they really shine IMO.

I will agree though that the IG super tanks like the stormlord etc could def use a buff.

Basilisks are useless, Medusa is the only arty option for Guard besides platforms.

True I guess, but the normal Russ is good for that tank rush before the end tier MBT's (Or used to be) but now they are just shitty damage sponges.

Baneblades need a gigantic buff of all the things.

why don't you change the mod to your liking ? it easy to use Corxis mod tool to change many things to fit the Codex . like Bolter must have seriously many more damage than lasgun

Tiger-tank wrote:

why don't you change the mod to your liking ? it easy to use Corxis mod tool to change many things to fit the Codex . like Bolter must have seriously many more damage than lasgun

Because its a pain in the ass and a lot of us have other things to do. We shouldn't even have to make changes that should already exist imo

That and the fact that the mod is unbalanced a fair bit more than it used to be. I do believe that the Shadowsword needs a decrease in relic resources as the only use for it is to overcharge shot other relic units, otherwise its useless against even most normal armour.

Kirbpaign wrote:

That and the fact that the mod is unbalanced a fair bit more than it used to be. I do believe that the Shadowsword needs a decrease in relic resources as the only use for it is to overcharge shot other relic units, otherwise its useless against even most normal armour.

In the lore a shadowsword can actually shoot of a warlord titan's leg in one shot, so it definitely needs a buff imo. Not a huge one, but just so it makes a impact on at least warhound titans.

As an imperial guard player I would like to make a few suggestions to make a few things better.

Basically, I love these guys in the mod, big thanks to the developer at this point, the amount of work in the mod is incredible and giving it to the community for free, just so they can have a better game should at least deserve a big thank you.

But now, to my feedback. Please excuse me if I make small grammatical mistakes here and there, english is not my native language.

Imperial Guards

The imperial guards, how they are in the game are pretty close to how the "lore - imperial army" is. Start with weak infantry, get tanks and the big guns, throw the enemy back with heavy artillery support. So far, so good.

Everything is basically fine until we reach mid/late game, with the Basilisk as first small disappointment. Let us take a look at the Basilisk's description in the lore:

"The Basilisk's main weapon is an Earthshaker Cannon, a 132 millimetre caliber gun that is capable of firing its shells over 15 kilometres at a velocity of 814 metres-per-second, and is fully capable of destroying enemy tanks and fortified structures with a direct hit"

In the mod right now "destroying enemy tanks and fortified structures" is translated to "throw infantry around which looks funny".

The Basilisk could really use a damage boost, maybe make the delay until shell impact higher (if possible) or make the gun more inaccurate, but right now you need an ridiculous amount of guns to provide an effective "lethal" fire support.

Also, why cant the basilisk equip Inferno shells? It can do exactly that in the lore and the earthshaker cannon platforms can do it - and the basilisk cant?

The closer we get to the endgame, the more I get the feeling, that the imperial guard is missing something. The Basilisk Magnus is pretty similar to the Ion Cannon of the Tau Empire, a "map-wide" gun providing fire support. The Armageddon shells are useful, but it isn't the "WIN" - Button Ability other empires have. (Tau sattelite, not to mention the necrons or the dark eldar)

If I may give a suggestion:

"Emperors Wrath Artillery Company"

The Emperors Wrath Artillery company is basically a fuckton of Basilisk's concentrating a massive barrage of artillery on a big area - for a long, long time. Wouldn't that be a good WIN-Endgame Ability for the Imperial army? It could either be a ability pointed on the map (and everything in a certain radius gets under heavy artillery fire for a long time) or an automatic ability (Like the space marine fleet support) just with a lot of artillery shells hitting visible targets.

I know it's not a lot of suggestions, I dont want to flood this Forum with thousands of suggestions, after all it's not my mod. Just a few ideas I had. But still, I am happy that the developers created this mod and I hope they keep up their incredibly good work!

ArxInvicta wrote:

As an imperial guard player I would like to make a few suggestions to make a few things better.

Basically, I love these guys in the mod, big thanks to the developer at this point, the amount of work in the mod is incredible and giving it to the community for free, just so they can have a better game should at least deserve a big thank you.

But now, to my feedback. Please excuse me if I make small grammatical mistakes here and there, english is not my native language.

Imperial Guards

The imperial guards, how they are in the game are pretty close to how the "lore - imperial army" is. Start with weak infantry, get tanks and the big guns, throw the enemy back with heavy artillery support. So far, so good.

Everything is basically fine until we reach mid/late game, with the Basilisk as first small disappointment. Let us take a look at the Basilisk's description in the lore:

"The Basilisk's main weapon is an Earthshaker Cannon, a 132 millimetre caliber gun that is capable of firing its shells over 15 kilometres at a velocity of 814 metres-per-second, and is fully capable of destroying enemy tanks and fortified structures with a direct hit"

In the mod right now "destroying enemy tanks and fortified structures" is translated to "throw infantry around which looks funny".

The Basilisk could really use a damage boost, maybe make the delay until shell impact higher (if possible) or make the gun more inaccurate, but right now you need an ridiculous amount of guns to provide an effective "lethal" fire support.

Also, why cant the basilisk equip Inferno shells? It can do exactly that in the lore and the earthshaker cannon platforms can do it - and the basilisk cant?

The closer we get to the endgame, the more I get the feeling, that the imperial guard is missing something. The Basilisk Magnus is pretty similar to the Ion Cannon of the Tau Empire, a "map-wide" gun providing fire support. The Armageddon shells are useful, but it isn't the "WIN" - Button Ability other empires have. (Tau sattelite, not to mention the necrons or the dark eldar)

If I may give a suggestion:

"Emperors Wrath Artillery Company"

The Emperors Wrath Artillery company is basically a fuckton of Basilisk's concentrating a massive barrage of artillery on a big area - for a long, long time. Wouldn't that be a good WIN-Endgame Ability for the Imperial army? It could either be a ability pointed on the map (and everything in a certain radius gets under heavy artillery fire for a long time) or an automatic ability (Like the space marine fleet support) just with a lot of artillery shells hitting visible targets.

I know it's not a lot of suggestions, I dont want to flood this Forum with thousands of suggestions, after all it's not my mod. Just a few ideas I had. But still, I am happy that the developers created this mod and I hope they keep up their incredibly good work!

Quite ironic when you realize a basilisk should actually fire the shells from the special "earhshaker round" ability they get regularly like in the lore.