AI Inconsistency Thread - Ultimate Apocalypse Mod (DOW SS) for Dawn of War

First off, I really love this mod and have been playing it (1.73.4) for a while now... However, there's always been this glaring issue of the AI. ( I mostly play on Harder Difficulty)

The ai in this game is hit or miss.. very often, my allied ai just turtle and derp around in base and at most send out one unit to skirmish with the enemy while keeping 99% of squads and vehicles in base (SM, IG, SoB - I'm looking at you). All while the opponent takes over the whole map and exterminates the camping ai. The malfunctioning ai only starts to engage the enemy when its main base gets attacked, but by then it is too late to fight back and the opposing ai will have much more resources from the map control they have. I have also tried playing on Hard diff to similar results. However, sometimes the SM, IG or SoB ai works perfect and they engage the enemy in full force from the start, leading to awesome battles

Thus, I wonder why certain races work fine 100% of the time like Chaos for e.g. while others like SMs, IG and SoB armies tend to derp in base uselessly sometimes while working fine other times. There is a lack of consistency in some races' ai in this mod compared to vanilla SS or other mods I've played like Titanium Wars and I do hope it gets looked at and fixed.

This is especially frustrating when multiple enemy AIs are crushing my forces and base while my ally's armies sit idly and watch me suffer exterminatus, likewise it is frustrating to face little to no resistance while taking over the points on the map (on Hard Diff). I am aware that others have mentioned this ai issue previously but it hasn't been addressed in a while. Once again, thanks for working hard on this awesome mod, Lord Doofus

Thank you for this feedback.

I will look more into this, no 100% assured fix, but will look into it. Thank you!

Seems how map are designed have direct influence on AI behavior too. I thought for a long time it was because I was most often playing custom made map but since reinstall I only have vanilla and apocalyzed version installed and what 08s23 and leon81VT describe still apply too. Some factions are very well working on some and are completely brainless on other *shrug*

leon81VT wrote:

Seems how map are designed have direct influence on AI behavior too. I thought for a long time it was because I was most often playing custom made map but since reinstall I only have vanilla and apocalyzed version installed and what 08s23 and leon81VT describe still apply too. Some factions are very well working on some and are completely brainless on other *shrug*

Not only that, it will be bullshit, but it seems that the aggressiveness of the cpu varies with the teamcolor used, it seems that using the teamcolor ultramarine or white scars, the cpu becomes fiercer, there will be some trigger?

Maps have an influence on AI behaviour, for example large maps with lots of strategic points are more likely to cause the AI to behave as expected. Small maps or with few strategic points will be more likely to cause problems with the AI. Teamcolour however has no influence whatsoever in the AI behaviour. Any possible change in behaviour depending on colours used are just related with your imagination as there isn't something like an AI trigger for a specific teamcolour.

Someone wrote: Small maps or with few strategic points will be more likely to cause problems with the AI.

Directly the opposite in this mod. :p All AI functions very wrell on 2 player maps especially.

The allied AI is atrocius. While the enemy is Skynet.

If we talk about enemy IA.
7/10 Why a 7? Because the games are brutal. It would be cool to play a little longer, building your base without caring of a total invasion. Let the players explore different tactics and the mod. This is more like tournement.

If we talk about allied IA.
1/10 Why a 1? Simple. They do nothing.

Evil_Cylarne wrote:

Someone wrote: Small maps or with few strategic
points will be more likely to cause problems with the AI.

Directly the opposite in this mod. :p All AI functions very wrell on 2 player maps especially.

Is that so? Don't hate me
Youtube.com ...1.73.4 version with the (not so) shi**y Necrons starting economy.
Quite "sad" to read when mod description is all about massive battles, super weapons and titanic units ^_^"

@ZZ_manu-ZZ: Since genuine DOW(and 40k lore) is all about furious war, I wonder where you are "disappointed" by the game. Again, genuine or modded. Try Supreme Commander instead

Someone wrote: Is that so? Don't hate me

Youtube.com ...1.73.4 version with the (not so) shi**y Necrons starting economy.

Quite "sad" to read when mod description is all about massive battles, super weapons and titanic units ^_^"

Yeah... (balance issue at fault) way to go beating things with the overpowered attack scarabs... that drama camera doesn't help me see the view. :p No offense but the video is a terrible example. Too much moving. Some examples of 1.73.6 will be better.

Necrons, playing Necrons on "small" maps have an advantage because there are much less strategic points than big maps, as Necrons act differently. On big maps, that's where they don't have the advantage.

Edited by: Lord_Cylarne

Actually video show everything that need to be seen... I find this replay pretty funny. Especially when the Startship Troopers piece of music starts playing right on time (would sound better if I was playing IG but that was a test to listen how it sounds in DOW. Removed it since :p ).
Mini map show not a lot of movement.
Except: Me harassing 1st Eldar AI.
2nd Eldar AI doing nothing to help and waiting (what) near second relic.
My Necron ally focusing on building and economy with nothing to defend them except a wraith. If the lazy 2nd eldar AI would have attacked they could bring it some troubles.
By the meantime, I was advancing to tiers at same pace than Necron AI made a second monolith, built more generators than him and defeated 1st Eldar AI.
If you look at final scores you'll see that the the necron AI didn't killed anyone nor destroyed any structures...
That was a 1vs2 in the end.
That was on small map (256x256). 2 requisition point near each player base and 2 relics in middle of map.
So, yeah Eldar were not going for the best scenario but actually to rush like I did, I needed to take requisition points to speed up production. Otherwise this strategy would end up as a big fail.

This kind of scenario still apply with latest version.May it be on small/medium/big/huge maps. On some of them some factions do great and some other don't as explained few post above :\

AI is following/repeating some kind of scenario all the time. For example, Tau AI won't attack until they get a Skyray. So they always attack around 7/9 minutes. SM usually make their first assault after 5/6minutes. Chaos 7. Nids 10 and so on...

Concerning Necron balance. The fact that you made the 12 first generators free is a perfect fix for their (previously) very slow start imho. Now, I think you should make Necrons pay for extra genartors once the 1st 12 ones are done. This should fix the now too fast growth in power of Necrons The fun fact is that as Necrons are stuck to tier II with 1.73.6, it is somewhat balancing the issue/bug

Edited by: sinblood

The video shows Eldar being slaughtered to overpowered attack scarabs when they (Eldar) obviously had too low income when you keep destroying their Listening Posts over and over and kill off their infantry each 120 requisition they spend. Yet I see a Soul Shrine!

Someone wrote: That was on small map (256x256). 2 requisition point near each player base and 2 relics in middle of map.

Not related to quote:
What you mention is how AI is designed. All AI has flaws, and it is good enough if you find them and use them as an advantage. But what you are trying to get at is how broken they are. And that is false. Agreed with Necrons and Imperial Guard (In 1.73.6), they're broken. The other races are not, and I think it was an installation problem, because I never had broken AIs that go stupid completely.

Yet you don't show any of your other videos here... curious much as I see one example of yours that will rest my case.

Hopefully 1.73.7 Necrons are more balanced?

Edited by: Lord_Cylarne

Yeah they were slaughtered... Yet you to don't take in consideration that I pointed the fact that second Eldar AI did noting to help the other one nor attacked the necrons AI. By the way I'm not the one who designed the Necrons the way that they only have (free) scarabs to throw at the enemy at game starts It was a first play on this map too, I wasn't knowing it at all

Lord_Cylarne wrote:
Yet you don't show any of your other videos here... curious much as I see one example of yours that will rest my case.

I have no idea which one you have in mind but please do my ever name changing Lord (are you Tzeentch avatar by any chance? )

And lol before it was because I got system memories flaws and now that's my install which is flawed. I reinstalled the game and end experience the exact same issues.

Still the video showing IG vs Eldar AI in UA mod frontpage here...I'm sorry to say that, but I don't see any challenge coming from Eldar AI...But that's probably just me (again). Still it's very pleasant to listen how much fun have the guy playing this skirmish

Funny to see that most Youtube video are played mostly by people using normal difficulty...or maybe I'm unlucky finding others.

Edit: Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to sue/harass you, Cylarne. I praise what you did and what you are trying to do with the game but actually as a simple user, I'm far more concerned about gameplay than aesthetic or new units implementation. Actually I'm dreaming of a flawlessly working UA instead of seeing sentry turrets, gargant etc or new race implemented which most probably will bring more workload to the endless fix for this and that.

Edited by: sinblood

Huh? So I have to actually mess with this while it is nowhere mentioned(afaik) ?! I already did mess up with it by myself on some previous version of UA and noticed nothing different. Really.;)
Seriously it's already hard enough to get heard to not bring more random weirdness by my own.

If I find problems, I'll fix them. If I find them.

Someone wrote: I'm far more concerned about gameplay than aesthetic or new units implementation. Actually I'm dreaming of a flawlessly working UA instead of seeing sentry turrets, gargant etc or new race implemented which most probably will bring more workload to the endless fix for this and that.

aka balance and AI, you mean. The gameplay here in this mod is hands down great and flowing. It is the reason you still play this mod.

Edited by: Lord_Cylarne

I'm having much the same problem, did some testing with CPU vs CPU skirmishes and certain combinations. Sisters of Battle vs. Orks or Necrons vs. Tau will always result in one faction overrunning the other with barely any variation. The Sister AI will make 2 squads of Battle Sisters and be @ 4 pop while the Orks are at 35+ by that point.

In general it seems like the Orks and the Tau are incredibly aggressive, while other factions just tech without building any units.

EDIT: Fiddled with the AI Control Panel a bit, experimenting with tech speed and no rush timers, variation in these options makes AI vs AI a lot more unpredictable.

This mod rules btw. I just recently came back to Dawn of War and using the UA mod is probably even more fun than discovering the game for the first time. Outstanding work!

Edited by: Freezing_Sun

Freezing_Sun wrote:
EDIT: Fiddled with the AI Control Panel a bit, experimenting with tech speed and no rush timers, variation in these options makes AI vs AI a lot more unpredictable.

If you can share what you changed to achieve that, I would be very grateful, though you're talking about AI vs AI...that's nice but what about you vs AI? That's the most important. I suppose
Checking control panel again, I don't see much things that can be changed.
Weird thing is that at harder difficulty settings, there's no wait time before AI can attack (if only AI could really act that way) while there's a 10 minutes wait time for insane and lower difficulties got a wait value too (!!!???)

This mod rules btw.

Sure it does but it can be so much more

sinblood wrote: If you can share what you changed to achieve that, I would be very grateful, though you're talking about AI vs AI...that's nice but what about you vs AI? That's the most important. I suppose

I just changed those two values around at random with diferent combinations. I couldn't tell you about Player vs CPU, I'm an absolute weirdo who likes just sitting there watching CPU vs CPU. In general it seems that raising the time until all-out attack makes Necrons and Tyranids a lot stronger, while Orks and Tau will overrun you relatively early when that value is low. The other factions are a bit more balanced in that regard.

Not sure about the impact of tech speed.

Freezing_Sun wrote: I'm an absolute weirdo who likes just sitting there watching CPU vs CPU.

That's not weird. I do the same thing. Watching the AIs at work is fascinating and it makes one think of how they could be improved; how they could be made smarter, stronger and more efficient.

sinblood wrote: Weird thing is that at harder difficulty settings, there's no wait time before AI can attack (if only AI could really act that way) while there's a 10 minutes wait time for insane and lower difficulties got a wait value too (!!!???)

Keep in mind that lower wait times are not just simply better than higher wait times. They both come with their own advantages and disadvantages. Lower wait times mean the AI's forces will attack sooner but higher wait times mean the AI will attack with a bigger force when the time is up due to it building up it's army during that waiting period.

Freezing_Sun wrote: In general it seems that raising the time until all-out attack makes Necrons and Tyranids a lot stronger, while Orks and Tau will overrun you relatively early when that value is low. The other factions are a bit more balanced in that regard.

That's not surprising. Due to the design of the races, Necrons and Tyranids benefit more by waiting to build up a large army while Orks and Tau have a good early game advantage, so it's a given that the former would benefit from higher wait times while the latter would benefit from lower wait times.

It seems that the best thing to do would be to override these values so each race can have their own wait times (and if possible, their own versions of the other configurable values) which are optimum for their particular design. This may be doable. By my understanding, all the AI Control Panel does is alter the contents of the AIConfig.ai file, the contents of which are as follows (using mine as an example):

AISettings_Easy =
{
	iDancing = 0,
	iAttackDelay = 20,
	iTechSpeed = -2,
	iHandicap = 0,
	bAlternativeStrategies = false,
	bHarassing = false,
	bMultiBuildings = false,
	bRelicUnits = false,
	bTurrets = false,
	bMines = false,
}

AISettings_Standard =
{
	iDancing = 0,
	iAttackDelay = 6,
	iTechSpeed = -1,
	iHandicap = 0,
	bAlternativeStrategies = false,
	bHarassing = false,
	bMultiBuildings = false,
	bRelicUnits = true,
	bTurrets = true,
	bMines = true,
}

AISettings_Hard =
{
	iDancing = 1,
	iAttackDelay = 2,
	iTechSpeed = 0,
	iHandicap = 0,
	bAlternativeStrategies = true,
	bHarassing = true,
	bMultiBuildings = true,
	bRelicUnits = true,
	bTurrets = true,
	bMines = true,
}

AISettings_Harder =
{
	iDancing = 2,
	iAttackDelay = 0,
	iTechSpeed = 1,
	iHandicap = 0,
	bAlternativeStrategies = true,
	bHarassing = true,
	bMultiBuildings = true,
	bRelicUnits = true,
	bTurrets = true,
	bMines = true,
}

AISettings_Insane =
{
	iDancing = 2,
	iAttackDelay = 10,
	iTechSpeed = 2,
	iHandicap = 0,
	bAlternativeStrategies = true,
	bHarassing = true,
	bMultiBuildings = true,
	bRelicUnits = true,
	bTurrets = true,
	bMines = true,
}

As you can see, it's simply altering the values inside the different AISettings tables. Theoretically, if these tables were instead defined in each of the races' AI files (the AI Core and/or RaceLoader might need to be changed to accommodate this) then each race could have their own wait times as well as their own versions of every other value. Of course, it would probably be important to keep the AIConfig file to use as a default in case a race doesn't have these values defined. I'd definitely be interested in someone trying out this idea.

How do you proceed to make AI vs AI match setup? 0o

Someone wrote: if these tables were instead defined in each of the races' AI files (the
AI Core and/or RaceLoader might need to be changed to accommodate this)
then each race could have their own wait times as well as their own
versions of every other value.

^THIS^. It would be fantastic!

Someone wrote: ... and
Tyranids benefit more by waiting to build up a large army while Orks and
Tau have a good early game advantage, so it's a given that the former
would benefit from higher wait times while the latter would benefit from
lower wait times.

Yeah and that's what is bugging me with their actual gameplay into UA. They have to wait but are the weakest late game faction...There's something wrong here. That's a big part of why I don't play them anymore. They became just meat bag to toy with That's sad to see AI just spamming tons of zoanthropes and Trygons in the hope to bring some real damage. I prefered them post Grand Release in the end even if they had tons of technical issues that were fixed since, they were at least a faction to be feared playing against. From start to end.

Edited by: sinblood

sinblood wrote: How do you proceed to make AI vs AI match setup? 0o

Create a file named autoexec.lua in your Soulstorm folder and put "run = Cpu_ControlLocalPlayer()" (without the quotation marks) into it. Then start the game in dev mode, by adding "-dev" at the end of the Soulstorm shortcut target line, so that it says (example Steam version, if you've got the retail it'll be a different path) "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Dawn of War Soulstorm\soulstorm.exe" -dev. Now if you load a Skirmish map, the faction you chose for yourself will be AI-controlled.

If you don't want to do all that you can also just load up any map made for more than 2 players, put 2 or more AI opponents in, and at the start of the game select your HQ and press Del. You'll automatically lose and the game will ask you if you'd like to look around more. Click yes and the AI opponents will continue playing.

So, first method works for all maps, second one for 3P upwards.

sinblood wrote:

THEONLYDarkShadow wrote: if these tables were instead defined in each of the races' AI files (the AI Core and/or RaceLoader might need to be changed to accommodate this) then each race could have their own wait times as well as their own versions of every other value.

^THIS^. It would be fantastic!

I'm glad you think so. As I said, I'd be interested in seeing someone try this out.

sinblood wrote:

THEONLYDarkShadow wrote: ...and Tyranids benefit more by waiting to build up a large army while Orks and Tau have a good early game advantage, so it's a given that the former would benefit from higher wait times while the latter would benefit from lower wait times.

Yeah and that's what is bugging me with their actual gameplay into UA. They have to wait but are the weakest late game faction...There's something wrong here. That's a big part of why I don't play them anymore. They became just meat bag to toy with That's sad to see AI just spamming tons of zoanthropes and Trygons in the hope to bring some real damage. I prefered them post Grand Release in the end even if they had tons of technical issues that were fixed since, they were at least a faction to be feared playing against. From start to end.

Really? I've heard (and seen though other people's playthroughs) that the Tyranids AI is one of the more devastating, destructive and difficult ones to beat; though I will agree that they're not really fun to play as when compared to the other races. Can't quite put my finger on exactly why, though; they just don't feel as fun as the others.

Freezing_Sun wrote:

sinblood wrote: How do you proceed to make AI vs AI match setup? 0o

Create a file named autoexec.lua in your Soulstorm folder and put "run = Cpu_ControlLocalPlayer()" (without the quotation marks) into it. Then start the game in dev mode, by adding "-dev" at the end of the Soulstorm shortcut target line, so that it says (example Steam version, if you've got the retail it'll be a different path) "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Dawn of War Soulstorm\soulstorm.exe" -dev. Now if you load a Skirmish map, the faction you chose for yourself will be AI-controlled.

Be warned, however, that apparently the difficulty of the AI that takes control of the faction you have chosen will be locked to Hard. I do not know if it is possible to change that, but it's something to watch out for. The difficulty of the other AIs can be changed as normal, though.

Another neat command you can put in the autoexec.lua file is run = setsimrate(x), where x is the framerate you desire. This, as you can probably tell, changes the framerate of the game. Great for speeding things up so it gets to the good stuff quicker.

THEONLYDarkShadow wrote: Be warned, however, that apparently the difficulty of the AI that takes control of the faction you have chosen will be locked to Hard. I do not know if it is possible to change that, but it's something to watch out for. The difficulty of the other AIs can be changed as normal, though.

Another neat command you can put in the autoexec.lua file is run = setsimrate(x), where x is the framerate you desire. This, as you can probably tell, changes the framerate of the game. Great for speeding things up so it gets to the good stuff quicker.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that. Thanks. :-)

Thanks to both for the tricks ! Will be useful.

THEONLYDarkShadow wrote: I'm glad you think so. As I said, I'd be interested in seeing someone try this out.

Even though it would be Awesome, I guess that's not something possible. It would have already been done otherwise. I find strange that author(s) of Dawn of Skirmish didn't made it if it would have been possible. Obviously, I might be wrong (I wish).

THEONLYDarkShadow wrote:
Really? I've heard (and seen though other people's playthroughs) that the Tyranids AI is one of the more devastating, destructive and difficult ones to beat; though I will agree that they're not really fun to play as when compared to the other races. Can't quite put my finger on exactly why, though; they just don't feel as fun as the others.

Well, they are quite overwhelming but not that much dangerous imho. Just build a strong defense at starting point 1st tier. When you see they can't achieve to break trough, then they are already lost.
They are annoying because of their number, blinding FXs (which just bother player...same with the shadow of the warp effect and so is useless when playing as Nids ), confusion they bring to player because they are able to transform a smooth fps into a stop motion (Big slowdon a Pentium 4 and exact same since I have a core i5!!!) but not really because the damage they deal. So yeah it is moving everywhere on map and what?...just keep calm and continue to build slowly but surely your strategy. Build your base on a wide area, generators especially. AI love to launch meteors on them. This way they are forced to spreed their forces...and nullify significantly impact of their assault.
Each time you notice there is a key point to their stream, place some few multipurpose units and a secondary heavy defense point. Gather your main strike force somewhere they tend to ignore and here we go for the nest
There is a way to slow down them quite efficiently. Kill the Hive Tyrant as soon as you see one. That way all gaunts will lose morale, falling back to their base. That way they are disturbing pathfinding of all the units that are one way to your lines. As simple as that.

That's the latest skirmish I did against them. 4 Necrons vs 4 Nids. If I didn't followed what I wrote above, we would have lost.
Strong defense at start I.imgur.com
Blocked stream of 2 AI. There was there a doomsday monolith 2 units of snipers 2 tomb stalkers and a gauss pylon in case a hierophant show is maws (and they did) . Meanwhile my strike force was dealing with first nest (Nightbringer, Lord destroyer,2 Pariahs, 2 Tomb Stalkers)
As you can see on mini map, I cutted their deployement area in 2. Isolating the one at south.
Meanwhile the 3 Necrons AI wanted absolutely to use the north passage instead of using (at least partially) the highway I did for them... I.imgur.com , I.imgur.com
When they finally reached the other side of map. 2 AI were dead. What could they do against that then I.imgur.com , I.imgur.com
You can notice that AI don't even have a relic/titan unit deployed here. They just made an awakened monolith and few siege ones...at entrance of our base. They were destroyed and they never did any other after that. On my side I did those three you can see on screens. They did it to the end since their initial deployment.
Final scores are very talkative...
I.imgur.com 2 deficient AI on my side...Perfectly working Nid AI on the other.
I.imgur.com Playing harder difficulty, I should be the one with lowest resources score too... Notice my energy income on screens too. Just made the "limited" 24 generators, builded the four thermo generators on slag deposit (Necron AI still do not build on them) and the BIG one.
I.imgur.com Is there anything to say here...
So, no, Nids are definitely weak even with the worse possible conditions you can meet when playing against them. As I'm starting to learn playing Tau seriously, I tried same scenario: 4Tau vs 4Nids. While we had some few more problems dealing with them at start, they in the end have been completely overwhelmed since Tier2.

Edited by: sinblood

THEONLYDarkShadow wrote:
AISettings_Harder =
{
iDancing = 2,
iAttackDelay = 0,
iTechSpeed = 1,
iHandicap = 0,
bAlternativeStrategies = true,
bHarassing = true,
bMultiBuildings = true,
bRelicUnits = true,
bTurrets = true,
bMines = true,
}
As you can see, it's simply altering the values inside the different AISettings tables. Theoretically, if these tables were instead defined in each of the races' AI files (the AI Core and/or RaceLoader might need to be changed to accommodate this) then each race could have their own wait times as well as their own versions of every other value. Of course, it would probably be important to keep the AIConfig file to use as a default in case a race doesn't have these values defined. I'd definitely be interested in someone trying out this idea.

Thanks for this by the way. I fiddled around with the settings for the harder settings and the ai for Space Marines doesn't seem to spam Servitors as much anymore. Still very annoying how it does that though