Revamp Expansion Mod (RVE) The Ultimate Supreme Commander 2 Experience (New Scale, New Units, New Ability's, New Game)

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Jul 5 2013, 10:11pm Anchor

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This is about the Galaxy AA Gunship XP.

Frankly,it's not very functional for it's role,and suffers from the same problem as the Soopriser.
It can't carry out the role of a gunship,let alone an Major T5 XP one.
It's too slow movement speed and DPS wise,which would not be good for raiding on bases.

However,to avoid it being a copy of the Cybran Soul Ripper,i suggest the following changes in accordance to distinct it based on it's model.

A.Buff it's firing rate and projectile speed.
B.Buff it's Forward Movement Speed greatly.
C.Allow it to fire it's guns at Air Targets,or have a good AA mounted Defense,since like the T3 Restorer,it is an AA Gunship,after all.

Now,what do i have in mind?
Shape wise,it resembles:
Cnc.wikia.com
Xcom.wikia.com

Somewhat like this in role.
Starwars.wikia.com

(Actually,in that vein, i also want to give it the ability to be like the King Star Extreme or Giant Transport to be able to transport units over.The Aeon are too forced to use the Space Temple XP for transporting land troops.)

What i am suggesting here, is based on it's model and shape,i would make the Galaxy a somewhat Air to Air XP that can chase down faster air units to an extent,or fly into a defended base for a dropoff landing,yet flexible enough to still do Air to Ground,however,compared to their true super dedicated counterparts in the long term,they won't be as good,nevertheless,they are still quite useful to have in the air force as a good general all rounder when it comes to super late game fights....

(So no,it won't replace the need for fighters or gunships necessarily in the long term.You can spam them for effect,but you could have gotten the same/similar/better result with units more dedicated for the the respective roles. )

(It's slow Turn Rate,which would be it's weakness,means the player has to micromanage it quite a bit should he want to keep it alive.)

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Thus,how i think the Dynamic of the Aeon Air Force would be:
Darkenoid: T4 Minor Plunderer.
Czar: T4? 5? Mothership Aircraft Carrier.
Soopriser: T5 Major Ground Bombardment Gunship
Galaxy: T5 Major AA Dropoff Gunship

I will conduct more tests later and come back with the results.
More to come.....

Edited by: Rtys8

Jul 6 2013, 2:19pm Anchor

Goodness. You should write the How-SupCom2-Should-Be-Balanced encyclopedia or something :)

It's a shame balance is so boring to implement.....

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Jul 7 2013, 12:59am Anchor

Well since balancing is boring, can you use the same balance as RVE 1.1 in your Add-on??? It pains me to see Universal Colossus so weak... :'(

:D

Jul 7 2013, 3:45am Anchor

Well,the reason why iam supporting this mod over RVE atm,is because of how many models you intend to put,(which is to say alot).

My intention is to try make the Mid Game stages more essentially active,namely, T3-4.
Then,make Late Game stages intense,but not necessarily T5-6 always has to be the end all solution to win.

It just so happens most of the models/unit you pumped out so far seem very good T3-4 Mid game material.I look forward to working out the dynamic in each of em.
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The Galactic and Universal Colossus right now,frankly is in a bit of a hard to fix state.
It used to be a brutal 1v1 close ranged unit killer,but thanks to the Monkeylord,that's no longer true.And,with everyone doing crazy damage from range,it's hardly useful now.I need to rethink their roles,now that their concepts don't work anymore.
It suffers from the same problem as the Hades.

I have a few ideas how to fix these two frankly, but i want the whole extent of how many Land XPs we are going to get before i draft the dynamics out......
I want to post up a SC wikia style chart to present it much better...

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I'm fine with the Monkeylord now,frankly,since before it,the Cybrans were hopelessly weak in Majors.Now to do a evaluation of their new xps...

Well,i hope you can give the Illuminate a counterpart for the T5 Siege Land Major XPs Jackhammer/Monkeylord/
Servimg.com

Somewhat like this,since both the Monkeylord and Jackhammer are slow,i was thinking they should get a really fast moving rapid firing siege XP unit.

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Btw,the Zheela isn't efficient for it's artillery role. Given it's slow projectile speed and low fire rate,it needs longer range and a bit more damage.

Edited by: Rtys8

Jul 7 2013, 8:59am Anchor

The illuminate have some interesting models from Total Mayhem, but, as Burnie likes humanoid experimentals (and is very good at them...) almost all of the illuminate XPs in SC1 are mechs. (Of course, there is the Paladin XP missile bot thing. That's probably my favorite illuminate XP)

My personal opinion on the monkeylord (which probably doesn't make much sense balance-wise, if any sense at all, but it's still my opinion) is that it needs lower health. I always thought of the monkeylord as the cybran sort of assault bot, and assault bots are SUPPOSED to have high damage and low health (or, so says the SC2 loading tips...). The monkeylord definitely has the high damage, but doesn't exactly qualify for "low health".

I find it sort of funny how in SC1, the Monkeylord was really the worst experimental for the cybrans...

On another note, I found some bugs myself. I'll put them here so they won't be repeated:
-Torpedo PDs just disappear when they die
-The summit class doesnt' seem to be built by the AI
-If the AI upgrades to tech three of a type of unit, and then builds a factory, the factory will have a tech 2 icon
-The Neptune Class doesn't have a "tech 3" battleship icon.
-The AI seems to crash the game when it wants to build the Atlantis I
-Hacker looks like it suffered a blizzard. Not sure what happened there.
-UEF doesn't build subs very much....
-Torpedo pds don't look like they have cost stamps.....(I'm pretty sure they do, though....)
-No AI support for the Karakurt or the Madcat IV

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Jul 7 2013, 9:12am Anchor

I think you should try finding other sources of models,though just in case.

Hmm
i argued over Leosake about the ML alot back then,but he had a good
point.The C-Rex really isn't viable,and even i cannot figure how to fix
it.

But then, if ML II is coming,i would really want to push for it to be squishy as it was back in FA.Stealthy Glass Cannon.
But all things said, we still need to fill up that slot for the Illuminate.They need a T5 Siege Land Major XPs.
====================
Hmm i get what the UEF Imperium XP Gunship is for,it just lacks a bit of speed and turn rate,otherwise, it's mainly fine.

Jul 7 2013, 10:13am Anchor

Haha! Balance success! Sort of.

A couple of mechs come to mind when you say major land XPs. Unfortunately, none of them really fit the "siege" part:
-Paladin Missile assault bot. (My personal favorite)
-Enforcer EMP bot. Occasionally sends out an EMP pulse. (don't ask me how I"ll get that to work. But it can't be that hard....can it?)
-Novacat I and II Assault bots. Lasers and all that.

I'm thinking about sending a PM to OrangeKnight about using models from blackops. That's my other favorite SC1 mod. And it has the inquisitor......which is a siege bot.

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Jul 7 2013, 10:23am Anchor

Actually,thinking about it........remembering the times in FA,not everyone was necessarily "equal".
Everyone just had different weapons.

But the point is, i think to fix the Illuminate XPs,i think we first need to revise how they really played.
I just had an idea how to fix both Galactic and Universal Colossi,to make them useful again,but nevertheless,lets first decide what kind of unit fills the slot mentioned.

Maybe,maybe, what if they don't really need a T5 Siege XP,but something that does a similarily crippling effect to clumped armies or turtling bases?

Now, i am aware this is for a T5 Major,so it's firepower would be around that range.
But in a 1v1 against an Monkeylord,of course it's definitely not going to win.
But here's the key i have in mind.

Over time,this XP would be able to wear down bases,or fight off armies,but yet still not truly a real front-line XP like the Colossi.

You mentioned an EMP bot.I'm leaning towards that.
And what it means by EMP, it's something like a Nuke's aftereffect or Ashwassa's bomb that stops units in an area from functioning.

Edited by: Rtys8

Jul 7 2013, 12:52pm Anchor

Keep in mind that the EMP doesn't "shoot" a projectile like the Buhbledow or the Ahwassa. This bot creates an EMP 'shockwave' around itself every once and a while.

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Ends up I can't use Blackops' models. They like to keep their models within their own mod. And you can't really blame them either. I wouldn't want to give away my models to some random modder who asks if he can use them. At least, not usually.

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Jul 7 2013, 5:30pm Anchor

Double the range on the pull&smash, double the range (or damage) on the airnomo, raise the hp of the Czar and let the bubbledow have a wider blast radius or longer duration. (with revamp shields, they stay down just long enough for you to sneeze

Aeon for life!

Jul 7 2013, 5:49pm Anchor

You may want to look, a couple posts back rtys8 (typing that eight just took me ten tries. no exaggeration) suggested how to balance/differentiate between the czar and darkenoid. Do you agree?

Amen about the buhbledow. The thing is useless....almost.

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Jul 7 2013, 7:40pm Anchor

Uh this is regarding the Bomb Bouncer, which is relatively a bit OP for it's tier for a T4 Minor.
In fact,it's pretty much impossible to counter it.
Relatively very cheap compared to other XPs of it's firepower and function.
Shields that block a ton of damage from most sources,regenerates extremely fast.Worse,it's
damage ability is actually quite spammable for relatively cheap amounts of energy with low cooldowns.

This means it's actually nearly impossible to fight it with anything.It's way too good.
This utility XP which was supposed to be a defense unit,often can get abused as a combat/siege unit very easily if spammed in great amounts.

I suggest a nerf to it's ability cooldowns,ability energy costs and shield regeneration.
=================================================
Magnetron Spamming is also quite out of hand sometimes in the Cybran Late game.

I also suggest a huge increase in energy costs needed to build it,along with higher cooldown times needed to activate it's abilities.

Edited by: Rtys8

Jul 8 2013, 11:49am Anchor

It's a good thing you write all this down....otherwise, I'd forget something. :)

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Jul 8 2013, 12:15pm Anchor

Well it's not that i hate the Cybran Nation,but simply,such an atrocity of "I have researched everything in the tech tree,so now i will win regardless whatever you can throw at me."

It is this combination of Boomerang Anti-Nuke + Hard Counter Land Magnetron + Anti Air/(or EVERYTHING even) Bomb Bouncer that gives me such an impression.

You thus have a unukable,unattackable,overpowering faction when it's at Late Game. This is way beyond Luxury Turtling,it's Overpoweringly Immunity!
A.Just more than 1 Magnetron guarantees "untouchablity" by land units.
B.Boomerang,actually is more than just avoiding a nuke,it's a free nuke back!
(I should propose a nerf to that too actually,like same with Magnetron,make it extremely hard to build and maintain compare to normal anti nuking.And Cybrans get Nukes and Anti Nukes in one building already.....)
C.Bomb Bouncer Spams Mega Blast.Nuff said.

That leaves only Artillery as a way to finish things.And not every one has a hugeass firepower XP artillery like the Mavor should he have turtled up so hard that he can withstand T3 artillery.And even then,this is the Space Temple situation with the Illuminate again,shoehorned into the "most effective strategy" because that' is the only workable one.

Trust me, even as turtley as the UEF is,they definitely have some weaknesses.

==================================================
Back to things......

Futurelord wrote:Double the range on the pull&smash, double the range (or damage) on the airnomo, raise the hp of the Czar and let the bubbledow have a wider blast radius or longer duration. (with revamp shields, they stay down just long enough for you to sneeze.

Aeon for life!


Now,i am trying to draft out a version where the same situation uncounterable situation does not happen like the Bomb Bouncer i just mentioned for the Pullinsmash.
I had asked Overated once how this property of "Knock up" works.It's tied to a "projectile".We might need to revise the concept a wee bit.

First off,this unit is meant for area denial like the Bomb Bouncer,except from a distance.I am going to work out a suitable revised concept.Stay Tuned.


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Supcom2.wikia.com

If even the Wiki says it is trash, it needs a buff pronto.

Airnomo should be relatively easy to fix.

Overall,i say it needs quite a lot of buffs to it's weapons and projectile speed,weapon range and mostly importantly,DAMAGE.
And also,try increasing the number of projectiles it shoots out,so that it can deal with masses of air,actually,just give it Flak projectiles from T2 AA towers.

Edited by: Rtys8

Jul 8 2013, 4:15pm Anchor

As for the airnomo.....

If I increase projectile speed anymore, it might as well shoot six continuous lasers. So I am going to veto that part of the idea. Sorry....

Weapon range and damage is an easy fix. I could also give it a larger damage radius.

I like the airnomo projectiles....I'd rather keep them as they are. Of course, I do get into grudges, and that's probably what this is :)

On another note, just created .... er, ported .... an interesting new cybran unit. It's not an experimental (for once). But it is unique....

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Jul 8 2013, 4:53pm Anchor

can you add FA eco? it takes to long to get enoth mas and energy to build expermentals....allso can you edit so when artilry fires it takes energy like in supcom 1?

Jul 8 2013, 4:59pm Anchor

I think adding an FA-style economy is possible (hasn't overrated done it already?), but I don't think I have the skill level yet to do that....

I personally think that experimentals are too easy to get. But that's just me....

Making weapons cost energy should be manageable. I'll have a look into it.

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Jul 8 2013, 7:41pm Anchor

Actually on that point,i think the economy is fine where it is.Building and using more of T4 Minors may be my intention.
It's just some of the Major Experimentals are too easy to abuse/spam. Fine,the Cybran and UEF can have those great toys.But there needs to be a limit to that critical mass situation Late Game.Now i am hoping we can give the Aeon some good toys of their own too.
[UEF is balanced with theirs for now i think.]

Experimentals with such powerful concepts should be like the way the Mavor/Novax is.So expensively valuable that you have to defend it like a Wonder from Age of Empires.

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For the BubbleDow, i am thinking that maybe,it would still be able to carry out it's function if it causes an EMP effect.Can't recharge those shields if they are temporarily disabled,right?

Also,since it's not a true damaging nuke,but a "disabler", it should be much cheaper per missile and have much shorter cooldowns for easier continuous firing.

Btw,i am thinking of giving them a counterpart to the Novax Satelite,but do you have any building models?
In fact,the Aeon also lack an offensive strategic building.
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Speaking of grudges,this is why i feel suspicious of the RVE team at times,they just don't seem to share alot on their progress,and they seem like Cybran fans,so i really have trouble taking their word for it that they would really fix how underpowered the Illuminate are....

I mean,if it is a grudge,it's out of guilt.I can't bear to just club a baby seal like this all the time,and he can't fight back no matter what he has.

Edited by: Rtys8

Jul 8 2013, 9:35pm Anchor

I'm a bit confused when you talk about the buhbledow (I'm pretty sure that's how you spell it). You seem to say that it would be better if it creates an EMP. Then you say that it is a disabler....acknowledging that it causes an EMP....

I don't have any good models for an aeon building. I would have used blackops' artemis satellite, but I can't use their models so.........can anyone model and texture?

Creating a system where there is a slight camera shake when units die at the moment. I don't know about any of you reading this, but I always loved 4th Dimension's explosions mod. (Wish I could copy their code......) One of the things they did was have a slight camera shake when small units died. It made the explosions much more exciting.

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Jul 8 2013, 10:18pm Anchor

Exactly,it disables buildings and units,via an EMP effect from a Nuke/Ahwassa Bomb.You can't do anything if the said units/buildings are in a Power Manfunction state.

Btw,i forgot to mention,the Darkenoid needed a HP and movement speed buff most of all.Gotta need to be able to spread that dps around effectively..

Hmm what i wasn't thinking about a satellite,the Novax in itself is a niche strategic weapon.
But the Illuminate need one of those too,since the Temple and Bubbledow aren't direct offensive strategic weapons.
Outside of Nukes and Artillery (which thankfully was returned to them,but i should get to working how to distinguish the two T3 ones from each other sometime),both of which can be turtled against.

Now,this also means the Cybrans would deserve one too,but given such a luxury of literally winning the Nuke War outright of the Boomerang,i wouldn't give them one.

Edited by: Rtys8

Jul 8 2013, 10:44pm Anchor

This has nothing to do with the current conversation.....but I think this next update will be really fun :) . I'm working on a lot of new explosion and stuff now, so battles will really be cool....even though filming my mod (Ha! Like anyone's ever going to do that!) will be really hard....

Replacement for the Crusader is done. Lots of new projectiles...actually, not all that much. It just seems like a lot to me because it takes to long to port them. And I'm surprised no one has asked about the mystery cybran unit.....

Also, I just read a comment (ahem...THE comment) on the 0.2.1.1 download that reported a crash on corvanna chasm. Has anyone else had this issue? For that matter, has anyone ever had a crash with 0.2.1.1 that has occurred on a map WITHOUT water? (Funny...I'm talking like more than 5 people actually read this forum.)

Now, back to balance....

I think you covered the darkenoid before :D

I don't really know what else I can give the illuminate in the way of offensive buildings. I could always put in seraphim stuff for them (like revamp did with the ahwassa), but all I can think of with buildings that they have is the Yolona Oss....and I don't think that's what we're looking for.....

0_0
Idea.........

Burnie designed this super-awesome seraphim megabot for TM. It is by far my favorite unit in the game. Not that the enforcer doesn't sound fun...but what if this bot was the "basebreaker" thing that we've been talking about? That is, if I can get the textures to look nice....

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Jul 8 2013, 11:27pm Anchor

Maybe give them seraphim stuff...maybe,but i always was reserved about that option,since should one day someone crack how to put in new factions, we would need to start pulling it out from the Aeon then AND giving them back equivalent stuff.

Still working on the Colossi......
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Hmm....Pullinsmash hard countering every unit below T3,but cannot do anything else.....

Okay,i think we should buff it to be as effective a defensive XP like the Bomb Bouncer,but has a long cooldown.

Buff it's "projectile/rate" to be so fast that it can suck in anything that comes.
Buff it's effective sucking range to moderate area denial range.
See if it is possible to direct the sucked in wrecks in the direction of the enemy.

This can save an Illuminate commander from a massive army,but by the time he has access to this unit,you have the option of having a few T4 minors.
Since the effect does not work on other experimentals,structures or ACUs,it isn't unstoppable.

Edited by: Rtys8

Jul 9 2013, 5:14pm Anchor

Ha! Creating another faction will happen the same day that [put something impossible here]. I wish I could, but........I can't.

I'll look at the pullinsmash, but I can't guarantee I have the know-how to edit some of this stuff.....

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Jul 9 2013, 11:02pm Anchor

Well then, would it be possible to give them the Yolona Oss,then? If you could get it to work like it did originally,maybe that would just solve their lack of an Late Game strategic offensive structure.

If they manage to have it,i think the case with the Boomerang winning the Nuke War can be dropped.

Although,i feel this time since Nukes are easier to counter here,we have to revise it's concept of a Super Nuke again.
(And also we aren't sure if the condition for more than 1 nuke needed to kill it can be implemented.)

=================================
As for a Novax Counterpart,i think we could just let it slide,since we really have no models for the Cybrans or the Illuminate for such niche superweapons.

(But remember the Mercy Missile? And End Gamer tactic need not always be big....We can give
them back an End Gamer Niche via something else.)

I am thinking of actually making the Aeon Tactical Missile Launcher building actually useful.

Edited by: Rtys8

Jul 10 2013, 11:21am Anchor

The only trouble with the Yolona Oss would be the A) texturing and B) nuke effects, which I don't think work.....

The mercy missile is available in-game..........

In the future, I want to add TMLs (real ones, not the one the aeon have now) for all the factions.

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