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What is the purpose of the new Strategic Air Command structure? (Mods : Red Alert 3 Paradox : Forum : Paradox Discussion : What is the purpose of the new Strategic Air Command structure?) Locked
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Jun 18 2012, 12:33pm Anchor

I was not present* at the Paradoxcast where the role of this structure was discussed**, so I am creating this thread for information and discussion as to its role and the changes it makes to the Allies as a faction

*(Or missed it.)

**(Assuming it was.)

As a secondary motive, it would be nice if some discussion moved from the Wiki back to the forums- where it is easier for more casual fans to see and join in on.

Jun 18 2012, 12:51pm Anchor

It should have it's own protocols

Jun 18 2012, 12:55pm Anchor

I believe it will, though some may be protocols moved from other Allied structures.

Since apparently the structure services Galaxy Heavy Cargo planes as well as the Century Bomber, some protocols related to them seem fitting.

Of course, this is just speculation until someone who knows (Sketch) posts.

R3ven
R3ven Paradox Leader
Jun 18 2012, 1:57pm Anchor

Everything in a sentence: The Century is too damn big for the airfield. And they're powerful enough to get their own thing.

Jun 18 2012, 3:49pm Anchor

In that case, the purpose of this thread is now to discuss the building and the changes it will create.

The Century Bomber in vanilla RA3 was/is a fairly niche unit due mainly to its impotency against units and its limited availability to the later late game.

It had two main roles: Paradropping Tanya onto an enemy MCV for a cheese tactic win, and bombing enemy expansion Refineries in pairs to grant a heavy economical advantage if not countered swiftly.

I propose that this structure be unlocked by the Defense Bureau, or perhaps by Tier-2 clearance rather than Tier-2 clearance.

My central reasoning for this is the fact that the Century must be protected against enemy fighters to maximize its effectiveness: and with the Allies' air superiority aircraft in a different building requiring extra investment, players would likely be delayed in using the unit with such safety from a key hard-counter unit long enough for a map-aware enemy to put together a counter.

Surface vehicle based protection for the Century would face the same prohibitive cost requirement. Infantry lack the speed to protect them on foot while the Paradrop time of the Century's ability prohibits on-the-spot Infantry deployment for their protection. Both would also be limited by obstacles that the Century can simply fly over.

If the Century's construction building were to be unlocked by the Defense Bureau, it could become the Allies' answer to defensive turtling and fast-exansion tactics: and would fit in with the Heavy Artillery that the structure already unlocks.

Without an expensive specialist air superiority force to defend it, the Century Bomber is left to surprise bombings against enemies not scouting and countering it properly: or simple base-razing support for a ground army.

Shifting the Century to an earlier game role could lead to cheese tactics if it is not scouted, but a tactically thinking player who scouts and constructs anti-air counters accordingly should have little trouble in delaying the usefulness of the Strategic Air Command and gaining map control for that phase of the game.

R3ven
R3ven Paradox Leader
Jun 18 2012, 4:08pm Anchor

You can't balance a modded unit to the vanilla game, Galgus. Tanya dropping is more easily done by cardinals now, and the air response to expansion tactics are Vindicators and Longbow Liberators.

The Century remains at Tier 3, because it's an end game unit. A unit, that you use to end the game. We've put a fair amount of thought into this and we're balance testing around it. We are keeping the Century at Tier3, and that's final.

Now, instead of having an airfield hold four Centuries, you have a structure that holds one. Centuries build slightly faster than in vRA3, and SACs aren't much for endgame either, a measly 1000 credits, and they only take 25 power. Which is half the power any other production structure(besides the barracks) takes.

If you lose a Century, you're not stuck taking 2 minutes to build 4 of them anymore, you can build as many as you can in 20 seconds, provided you have the credits(2000 per).

The reason you won't get it after a Defense Bureau, is because you can build a defense bureau in the first two minutes of the game now. The Allied Tech Tree goes:

  • Conyard -> Barracks, Power Plant
  • Power Plant -> Refinery
  • Refinery -> Experimental Clearance, Heightened Clearance, War Factory, Airfield, Naval Yard, Defense Bureau
  • Heightened Clearance -> Max Clearance
  • Airfield + Max Clearance -> SAC
  • SAC -> Century
  • X Clearance -> XWorkshop, XAirstrip

By the way, Galgus. You won't get much response here, go on your wiki account and bring this up.

Edited by: R3ven

Jun 18 2012, 5:16pm Anchor

Will Century Bombers still require one airpad slot each, and is this slot only filled by the SAC?

The Vindicator and Liberator are stated to be poor base razors, so their only expansion countering ability would be in destroying Ore Collectors, which more of a setback to the expanding player than a counter to the tactic.

(Vindicators historically have been useless against Ore Collectors without Cryocopter support due to Collectors having a special resistance to their bombs, though I believe it was announced that they are going to be changed to kill them effectively.)

I made this post knowing that the Defense Bureau will be constructed like an alternate tier-2 for those going down that tech path.

I hold that a Century Bomber tactic could still be scouted and countered in time with a:

Conyard -> Barracks -> Power Plant -> Refinery -> Defense Bureau -> Strategic Air Command -> Century Bombers build.

(Leaving out two more power plants and the second Refinery for the most direct tech route.)

If the player wanted more than Defense Bureau unlocks and Infantry to defend the Century Bombers, they would need to add in an extra Power Plant and the production structure of their choice, not to mention likely delaying their first Ore expansion even further.

The Century was an underused, niche unit in vanilla Red Alert 3, and I view this change as a chance to give players the option to use it as a more central tactic.


I know that these forums have been quiet for a long time, but I'm hoping that some discussion threads might help bring them back as the place for discussion. If all else fails, I'll post on the wiki later.

Edited by: Galgus

open_sketchbook
open_sketchbook Your Lord and Master
Jun 18 2012, 9:13pm Anchor

Just FYI, you can kill a collector in three vindicator bombs. In my opinion, the best way to kill an expansion as the Allies is to kill the defenses and the collector with air power, then drop an engineer off in a cardinal, forcing a sell or capture.

The Century is not like it was before. It is beastly. The closest comparison is to the Carpet Bomb protocol in Generals. It is a base razer and will kill everything stupid or immobile enough to fail to move when the bomb bay doors open.

Also I am unlocking this with the caveat that I will cease to pay attention if the discussion becomes circular.

Edited by: open_sketchbook

Apr 8 2013, 11:52pm Anchor

OMG. UNLOCKED POST. PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS....
JK.
I just played the Soviets and Allies Beta...and I felt the Century was...well...Lackluster.
I targeted a Civilian building and in the run about 3-4 bombs hit it...It was still in green health.
Have Civ buildings been reenforced to super strength, or are the bombs not coded yet?

GearsGoAwryMan
GearsGoAwryMan bizzare mastermind
Apr 17 2013, 1:24pm Anchor

Civilian buildings don't follow the current armorcode XD

Try targeting your own buildings...

--

Medic wrote:I have no idea!

 
I don't drink coffee, but this guy creeps me into doing it. 

Apr 17 2013, 5:04pm Anchor

Ah.
Will that be fixed?
I mean, Sure buildings could be stronger.
But I'd rather just bolt some tracks and guns on a house than build an Apocalypse Tank with their current sate.

R3ven
R3ven Paradox Leader
Apr 17 2013, 8:20pm Anchor

It will be fixed, but I don't know when. The one problem with Civilian Structures are that there are so many of them. Makes it difficult. It will get fixed eventually when we resume work on Paradox.

Apr 18 2013, 5:52pm Anchor

MY LORD.
I AM BLESSED BY YOUR PRESENCE.
thank you for answering ALL MIGHTY PROPHET R3EVEN.
If I sacrifice my first child, will  you have a beer with me?

Apr 23 2013, 1:24pm Anchor

Can't you just change the armour set they have (I'd assume they are using the same one)?

R3ven
R3ven Paradox Leader
Apr 23 2013, 3:21pm Anchor

I could do that, and it would work, but then they would still have thousands of health(the biggest having 10000), whereas most things in Paradox are under on thousand.

GearsGoAwryMan
GearsGoAwryMan bizzare mastermind
Apr 23 2013, 3:55pm Anchor

even the current vacuum imploder?  :devil:

--

Medic wrote:I have no idea!

 
I don't drink coffee, but this guy creeps me into doing it. 

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