Toss Up #1! Who would win? Thread - Red Alert 3 Paradox mod for C&C: Red Alert 3

In a battle between the Syndicate and the Talon, who would win? Explain.

Order of the Talon.
1: the Talon's heavy armor negates the Syndicate range bonus
2: the Talon's AOE weapons(Lucifer, Calliope, Cleanser) keeps the Syndicates superior numbers from helping them
3: the Talon's soft counters(any promoted unit) prevent Syndicate battlesuits from being effective
4: the Talon's lack of permanent structures throws off long-range tactics in general
5: the Talon navy rules as compared to the Syndicate navy(rule the waves or lose the battle)
6: both airforces are crappy, but the Ribault gives the Talon an advantage
7: the law of conservation of ninjutsu supports the Talon
8: the law of the Super Prototype supports the Talon
9: the law of Chromatic superiority supports the Syndicate, but the law of Good vs Evil is against it
10: soldiers who believe in what they are fighting for are invariably superior to mercenaries, regardless of technology. belief is stronger than fact or truth

Mediterranean Syndicate
1: Most infantry from the Talon would be easily destroyed early game by the longranged syndicate infantry.
2: Lady Maria would be killed beforre she could Melee attack Minerva
3: Medusa
4: Terramerene Gunboat
5: More options than the Talon
6: No unit cap for heavy units

I say Talon,

1)Lots of infantry hate weapons,
2)Artillery spotting with hawks can almost negate the range disadvantage if used correctly,
3)Syndicate weapons are conciderably less powerful and only a little more numerous than Talon weapons,
4)I like the Talon more.

Syndicate:
1) Zero-Point Energy the Crawler. Enough said.
2) The Syndicate have units that can crew clear: The Talon's weapons can be turned against them.
3) Can make a human blockade with Auxillaries, allowing long-range harassment.
4) Have a huge economic advantage - Talon could not keep up with unit production.
5) Syndicate Railguns would do near-nothing against Talon steel, but Zero-Point Energy and more units would help negate this.

Of course, I could go the lazy way and say 'it depends on how good the players are'

Bah! All of you are thinking in terms of game. I say the Syndicate would win.

1. The Syndicate has support across the world, the Talon only rules Palestine.
2. The Syndicate has entire cities full of soldiers, the Talon only have Crawlers.
3. The Syndicate has AI and computers, all the Talon have is a Scottish secretary and her Japanese girlfriend.
4. The Syndicate could probably call upon the Peacekeepers to help in the name of world stability, while the Talon would be stabbed in the back by the Black Hand.
5. The Syndicate have a psychotic, satyrmaniac beserker as it's inflitrator, all the Talon have is some Errol Flynn wannabe.
6. The Talon would be concerned about doing the right thing, the Syndicate would just drug all their knights.

Psychotic, my reply to your points is, that the Order is almost as widespread and influential as the Syndicate; and while it could not directly defeat them, could definitely pull some strings to give them significant annoyance. I also think that the Syndicate don't have enough forces to root put all of the Talon, and they would just bounce back.

On a similar topic, what do you define as "win"? Total Annihilation? Strategic Upper Hand? Because these two factions are among the weakest militarily, so the former is very hard to achieve...

Edited by: Blood-Russia-Mk2

Talon.
1) Their superior armor actually makes them partially immune to pilot snipes
2) The more units you throw at the Talon, the stronger they become.
3) Flamethrowers and Thermobaric cannons vs battlesuits never ends well.
4) Archangel will gain airsuperiority because the Phoneix is a helicopter
5) The Order believe they have god's wrath on their side, hence they will fight till the last man. The Syndicate operate by money, and their troops can easily desert and turn mutinious.
6) The Order has the best military generals from around the world, the Syndicate has corperate leaders.

Syndicate - Talon
1) Medium armour - Unbelievably tough armour: Talon
2) Insane range - most things are low ranged: Syndicate
3) Generally lower than average firepower - generally low firepower until upgrades kick in: Tie
4) Good speed overall - lower than average speed and mobility: Syndicate
5) Complete control of a multitude of world-spanning corps - Secretive but not complete control of most known factions' leaders: Tie
6) Multiple millions of willing recruts and night-unkillable infantry (battlesuits) - decaying number of combatants: Syndicate
7) Extremely vurnerable power systems - no power needed at all: Talon
8 ) Unlimited access to military, industrial and logical means - needs to steal stuff/mindrape convert people for their cause: Syndicate
9) Commando has uber range - commando is melee but insanely armoured: Not computable
I could go on, but I think that's enough. Result: Syndicate wins.

Edited by: SоrataZ

I'm not sure because neither are the types to directly attack each other- they both prefer more subtlety, I think.

Edited by: Galgus

I think this will happen. China nukes everyone.

More likely everyone gangs up on China.

Ok so were going off topic then?

*Looks at sign saying "Topic that way", turns around.*

I think that match-up is tricky because neither of them would really go for a big direct attack on the other.

Edited by: Galgus

Galgus wrote: *Looks at sign saying "Topic that way", turns around.*

I think that match-up is tricky because neither of them would really go for a big direct attack on the other.

I'll create another thread then, for another Match up...

Except for long Cold War skirmishes??

I have to make two different arguments here. One is the short term, or the immediate battle. This would end up balancing on the individual skills of the commanders. The Talon's armor bonuses allow them to essentially negate the range advantage offered by the Syndicate, while the Talon's overall smaller army size can be overwhelmed by targets. Targets, but targets that shoot back. Eventually, numbers and precision range, as well as economy, will overwhelm the Talon. Because these weaknesses essentially negate each other, the short term battle is up to the skills of the commanders.

Now, long term. The Syndicate is dependent on an exposed, public, vulnerable power structure. I'm assuming that the Talon have agents everywhere - including in the Syndicate chain of command. So a theoretical mass assassination of the Syndicate leadership would leave the business and military portions of the Syndicate - which I am assuming are nearly the same (Business is War, afterall) headless and unable to retaliate. At best, they could flail about blindly, probably hitting a couple times, but not enough to take out the Talon. In contrast, the Talon's leadership is deep;ly hidden (we don't even know who they are yet - although Sketch might). As the Talon are highly secretive, it's doubtful that the Syndicate have any deep cover agents inside the Talon hierarchy.

The only variable here is Romulus. He seems to be the mastermind behind the Syndicate and may or may not be Kane, and he hasn't been seen in quite a while now. So assassinating him is unlikely at best.

I'd say short term battle goes to Syndicate, long-term victory goes to the Talon.

Conclusion. Talon vs Syndicate results in a stalemate where everyone runs around with their hands raised in humiliation mode.