Myech Balance Thread Thread - Red Alert 3 Paradox mod for C&C: Red Alert 3

This thread is for discussing the balance of and possible tweaks for the Soviet Myech unit.

The Myech in its current incarnation is capable of nigh endlessly kiting enemy units outside their range while covering them in AOE damage that effectively kills Infantry and Tanks.

This is invalidating most ground tactics against them, since even flankers like the Beagle take enough time closing with them to take heavy damage; and since the Myech is fairly durable as a unit, such units often do not manage to kill them.

In my opinion, the Myech currently has about twice the health it should as a unit, but the real balance problem with it is its kiting.

To remove the kiting aspect of the Myech, I think there are two options.

1. Reduce the Myech's maximum range to standard range.

This would remove the Myech as a light artillery, and may risk taking away its unique role.

2. Cut the Myech's mobility.

This would preserve the light artillery aspect of the Myech while removing the harmful kiting aspects. This could be as simple as giving the Myech an acceleration factor with its movement speed to remove kiting without dramatically increasing travel time; have it crawl like an M-100 when starting to move, but slowly accelerate to Guardian Tank speed.

Regardless of how kiting is removed, I believe that the Myech needs a heavy health reduction: it should be a vulnerable but dangerous glass cannon that Flankers dash past the enemy tank formations to attack, not armored enough to duel the Flankers.

Anyway, this is my opinion: feel free to post yours.

Just make the Myeche be unable to fire while moving. That stops it from kiting.

That would help, but then players may just back up, fire a volley, back up, fire a volley, ect. to kite.

Its the kind of thing that requires play-testing.

Regardless of the kiting issue, I think the Myech needs a heavy health nerf.

An acceleration time would be the perfect solution methinks.Much like what the Minuteman's fix was.

I think that potential solutions need to be tested by the alpha test team, which I am not a part of.

First of all. The Myeche is a kiter. It's the sole purpouse of the unit, the reason to construct it in the first place.

Ofcourse it needs an armour tweak, it can survive 2 vindicators as is, and that's for sure not meant to be. It's also way to efficent against all ground units (without the kiting expect which is needed to not make the Myeche yet another soviet dakka dakka brute force unit which IS NOT NEEDED) It's currently better against vehicles then infantry in damage, which doesn't really feel right. Nor should it be able to raze bases so earyl in the game. What I suggest is actually just combined minor Nerfs. The real problem is the fact it's ALWAYS been tier 1 in the betas while being a tier 2 unit.

Its kiting function is currently breaking the game: I don't think it is necessary, but it may need buffs in other areas were it removed.

I view it as a combat support light artillery, and like its brother the Horizon such units are nigh impossible to balance when able to kite.

Its ability to kite is currently difficult to counter without an airforce even when the Myech is completely unsupported: the unit should be a valuable support fire unit for an army, but not something that is self-sufficient.

It should hit so weak that it shouldnt matter much. It is a support unit, you use it to pinn down enemy infantry and vehicles to let OTHER units kill them.

Thats not really much a way to balance kiting.

It can keep its support role while having kiting removed easily- it would just require protection then. Like the Terror Drone's immobilizing Stasis Ray or the Scrapper Tank.

Seriously, what the heck is wrong with kiting? As soon as we don't talk about the allies or confed you think we should have NO tricks in our sleaves. Just numbers, damage and health. How do you counter kiting? You outmanouver and suround! Geez, what is this?

Kiting is a strategy that requires a lot of micro so if a commander wants to spend that much time and effort on some tier 1 units then let them. The Soviets could use some tactics and I see no reason why a tier 1 should do well when micro-ed. The Myech doesn't need another nerf, it does it's job well and I haven't seen this game-breaking power referred to. Kiting will make any unit better so why nerf the Myech when all units can kite?

Because the last game I kited Galgus who used OP Longbows to take down DarkyPwnz expansion base. And then when he tried to rush the Myeches with minutemen and minelayers he got kited and they died.

GriffinZ wrote: Seriously, what the heck is wrong with kiting? As soon as we don't talk about the allies or confed you think we should have NO tricks in our sleaves. Just numbers, damage and health. How do you counter kiting? You outmanouver and suround! Geez, what is this?

Kiting is something the Horizon has done, an Allied unit. Light artillery currently moves fast enough that even fast units take considerable damage trying to get in range of them, since light artillery and flanker unit speed differences are not exactly extreme.

Its also a poor excuse for diamond-countering Infantry, which even with transports have a rather difficult time closing into light artillery range. It is giving light artillery far too much ability to fight without support, eternally out of range of most enemies. I see nothing wrong with forcing players to defend light artillery for them to do their thing.

As far as it being micro-intensive strategy...not really. Trying to use three Javelin Multigunners so that the Javelin steps in and out of the Multigunner exactly when the Javelin IFV rocket volley is ready and done is micro intensive, but just moving units away and toward the enemy is rather standard micromanagement.

The Myech in its current incarnation is countering most ground units by simply spamming the unit with no support. The only units that can kite are those that can stay out of enemy attack range for an extended period of time while attacking them: thus only units with decent movement speed and above average range can kite.

Myechs currently move at about the same speed as most transports, and even tactics using fast anti-armor units like the Beagle accomplish nothing, since on top of being able to kite the Myech deals quite decent damage and is rather well armored. Its overpowered like the pre-nerf Mesofortress, like the Horizon, like the Lee Halftrack against ground, and yes, like the Longbow.

(Side note: the Lee is even better at kiting with its broken anti-ground range: I support it being nerfed as well.)

Kiting is making the Myech and all other units that can use it diamond counters to most ground units, which is an entirely invalid and unneeded role. Removing it would shift the Myech into a unit to be defended that offers supporting fire against infantry and vehicles.

I repeat, what the heck is wrong with Kiting? Just because it's not the allies or confeds you can't accept anything but unit standing still and doing damage.

And stop call it kiting ffs! It's called skirmisihing and is an extremly old RTS tactic, and a solid game element. Horse archers did it in Age of Empires. you know how people countered them? By cutting of their retreat.

It's a whole different matter that the myeche have high damage against vehicles and buildings which makes it to effecient, or that it have to much armour meaning whatever comes close wont damage it much anyway. There is the problem! And you know what was the problem with the Horizon? It knocked over infantry over a pretty large area considering it's high rate of fire, and a seconds firing killing a whole bunch of infantry. It also had good anti vehicle and building DPS.

The whole purpouse of the Myeche is skirmishing. Hence the fact it SLOWS DOWN ALL UNITS.

First off, this has nothing to do with faction preferences. Further more, the Allies and the Confederates actually have kiting units as well: which I also think needs nerfed.

With kiting removed, the purpose of the Myech would be support fire: have your tanks/infantry/stasis rays guarding the Myech while it slows and supresses the enemy- instead of the Myech countering almost every ground unit while ungaurded.

why would you want the slow and supress if you can't SKIRMISH? If you're going to stay and fight the enemy in the face, there is no reason to have the slow ability at all. Then the myeche would only add to the damage.

Skirmishing is a valid tactic, as valid as gunships hardcountering all ground units that can't hit air.

Also, isn't the Syndicate all about skimishing? And here the soviets got one single units (which is OP for its tier, damage and health) and then it brakes the game?

But don't get me wrong on this, I think a guy spamming Myeches shouldn't be able to more then scratch but halt MBTs, but flankers on the other side should be able to chase them and get into a minimum range of the myeche and kill them. This could require a somewhat immunity to stun and halt attacks to flankers, but that requires playtesting.

I think that kiting should not be removed as it is a good strategy. However, I think that the Myeche definitely should do a lot less damage and a lot more slowing and suppression. I kinda see the Myeche as a defensive unit that you use to harass and delay an enemy ground attack so that you can crush them down once they eventually reach your base.

tactic=/=strategy :p

Also, really, the unit pays for its price just for the current slow, any damage is just an extra flavour on the ice cream.

"Amatures discuss tactics, professionals, logistics"

*Amateurs

GriffinZ wrote: why would you want the slow and supress if you can't SKIRMISH? If you're going to stay and fight the enemy in the face, there is no reason to have the slow ability at all. Then the myeche would only add to the damage.

Skirmishing is a valid tactic, as valid as gunships hardcountering all ground units that can't hit air.

Also, isn't the Syndicate all about skimishing? And here the soviets got one single units (which is OP for its tier, damage and health) and then it brakes the game?

But don't get me wrong on this, I think a guy spamming Myeches shouldn't be able to more then scratch but halt MBTs, but flankers on the other side should be able to chase them and get into a minimum range of the myeche and kill them. This could require a somewhat immunity to stun and halt attacks to flankers, but that requires playtesting.

Slowing and suppressing could give Hammer Tanks a good opening to squish and Leach Beam enemy vehicles from afar, as well as helping Conscripts land Molotovs and desperate Flak Troopers hit with mines. You have to think of unit synergies, not just how the unit uses a mechanic alone.

I won't lie, the Syndicate are my biggest balance concern in Paradox: but I think that Open Sketchbook must have thought that through some and come up with a way to balance it. In any case, I don't talk much about it because it won't matter for a long time and people generally aren't interested in that level of prospective balance talk.

The ability to diamond counter Infantry wouldn't really be legitimate even if flankers were buffed to 2-shot the Myech: I think its just bad design to allow that kind of diamond countering from a safe range. Also, keep in mind that Terror Drones immobilize vehicles from long range with their Stasis Ray: which would completely shut down any attempt to rush the Myechs with vehicles.

acook10 wrote: "Amatures discuss tactics, professionals, logistics"

*Amateurs

There isn't much of a logistic side to RA3, although it could be cool.

Geez, paradox and even RA3 for that matter have enough ways to do stuff, stasis rays, shrink beams and cryo are different ways of doing stuff, which are gamebreaking due to not being all about hitpoints and DPS. Skirmishing is yet another. Find a solution.

Maybe leave this matter for playtest instead of just claiming Skirmishing is OP.

This entire thread is based on play-tests. Those play-tests involved Light Artillery diamond countering almost all* ground units using skirmishing, which I see as a problem.

*(Other Artillery units can hit back, but then ground combat has degenerated into artillery vs artillery. Fast units like the Beagle can manage some damage, but usually die before doing any meaningful damage: partly because it takes them a time under enemy fire before they are actually in range.)

It's not. It's based on the issue of having a tier 2 arty avaible at tier 1, with way to much health. The balancing in 0.921 is way to off to show much anything at all

There is no reason to remove tactics from the game even if they are cheap. Kiting is a tactic and even though it is not hard it does require a commander to constantly order his units around. Just because the Myech is effective at something doesn't mean it needs a nerf. There are an abundance of counter's for the Myech and if you try using simply 1 kind of tactic than you deserve to have a hard time. Simply put if a Myech is kiting either spread out, switch tactics, or take advantage of a commander paying too much attention to his Myech's and attack from a different angle. I don't mind making the Myech tier 2 as tier 1 artillery is always hard to balance, but don't simply flourish a nerf bat for all problems.

Edited by: norm0616

I don't see how tier 2 or less health will make its diamond counter role much better- with a bit of Terror Drone micro no non-artillery ground unit is going to be getting in range anyway.

@norm:

Are you saying that any tactic is legitimate because it is a tactic?

Aside using only air or artillery range units to counter a Myech kiting spam tactic, what counters do you know of?

Spreading out would likely do nothing, and at most allow units to live a bit longer while being kited. Attacking from a different angle isn't even possible in some maps with some factions, and is not required to fight anything else in the game.

The Myech kiting tactic is diamond countering most ground units: and I don't see why you think it needs that role.

Edited by: Galgus