Confederate refinery to 2000 from 2500? Thread - Red Alert 3 Paradox mod for C&C: Red Alert 3

OLD IDEA:

makes refs cost 2000 from 2500 because confed cannot survive the early game if they do anything except make as many minute men as they can afford.

NEW IDEA:

Make confederate refinerys cost 2000 from 2500 and require 75 power from 50.
Make confederate mcv give 75 power from 50 when deployed.

This idea makes the 3 ref build still expensive, but improves the effectiveness of a 2 refinery start. Which is exactly what confederates need in my opinion.

What do you guys think?

Edited by: JonnyKnows

The reason Confederate Refineries were raised to 2500 a piece(which is equivalent to the Empire's price as well) is because three Dozer three Ref builds were done within 1 minute of the game, giving the Confederate's a crazy advantage. It also is there to help roadblock their lightspeed expanding. You have Minutemen for Anti-Air, and your explanation is flawed as it is. You don't include money that you have gained from capping that oil(500 just for capping it) or the income from harvesting ore.

well minutemen have difficualty hitting moving targets, but defencive turrets and shooting stars even that out.

R3ven wrote: The reason Confederate Refineries were raised to 2500 a piece(which is equivalent to the Empire's price as well) is because three Dozer three Ref builds were done within 1 minute of the game, giving the Confederate's a crazy advantage. It also is there to help roadblock their lightspeed expanding. You have Minutemen for Anti-Air, and your explanation is flawed as it is. You don't include money that you have gained from capping that oil(500 just for capping it) or the income from harvesting ore.

Agreed.

I haven't personally seen the Confederates pressured properly outside of SEA-106: re-balancing may need to be done when more games are played for testing.

A majority of the Paradox community seems to play very passively, which lets the Confederates get away with massive early expanding.

(Hint: try a Riptide/ PK rush against the Confederates. From my past experience against it, its brutal- and you can easily lock them out of expanding on water.)

Edited by: Galgus

dude play vs me 1v1 I'll beat you with any faction because confed can't defend themselves, I've tried playing confed and the only time I am not scared of dieing is after 5-6 minutes when I establish 3 refs. The faction lacks anti air, it lacks anti rush. empire can go 3 refinery start, but it makes it extremely hard to defend! YOUR explanion is flawed. however unlike empire, confeds can't build their warfactory so quickly!

I didn't include that money because it all happens so quickly, you end up with barely 1500 credits collected. The money gained is not gonna work!

Now you guys can argue against me, I KNOW I'm right.
And the only way you can possibly change my mind is to actually beat me 1v1 if I go for fast rush tactics.

And trust me I know this game v well, and from what I've played with confeds they can't defend themselves against a good player like myself.
The only thing that makes the faction a bit hard to fight is the PAWI stuff.

Edit:

My new opinion is that they can only defend themselves if they avoid fast service depot. and aim for 3 refs+minute men spam.

Edited by: JonnyKnows

jonny, maybe you could try holding your ground with sandbags and minutemen before you get your vehicles out...

1500 can by you nearly any confederate unit, save for the MCV(5000), PAWI Truck(1800), M100(1750), and the Cruiser(2500).

you are a good player but you obviously don't like the confederates tactics. Without these cahnges you speak about anyone can win with a minutemen/dozer rush, (almost) anyone.

that was to jonny

The only thing im going to say is fast vind start with allies is very good v confred dozers get leveled easily.

Edited by: Phoenix^^

OKAY, after some testing and realizing how powerful minute men are.

HERE IS MY SUGGESTION NOW:

Make confederate refinerys cost 2000 from 2500 and require 75 power from 50.
Make confederate mcv give 75 power from 50 when deployed.
Here's why, 2 refs will force you into low power if you do not have 2 powerplants. this will defeat the purpose of having money to defend themselves with.
So, if you have the extra 25 power surplus you can afford more minute men for self defense without having to build the 2nd powerplant right away.
if the player goes for 3 refineries he will NEED the 2nd powerplant as the total of 3 refineries will consume 225 power surplus.
This idea makes the 3 ref build still expensive, but improves the effectiveness of a 2 refinery start. Which is exactly what confederates need in my opinion.

My idea makes the 3 ref start viable but expensive still, and makes the 2 ref start a lot more playable. this should allow you to get infantry AND a service depot too. this also opens up inf spam rushes and perhaps be in the same game empire/allies/soviets is with infantry.

I spent like 3 hours typing that and going through so much testing of confederate 3 ref/2ref & minute men.

the only thing op about minutemen is the range, I went through testing to find that the anti air&anti tank is on par with the javalin soldier but not better.

Also vindi's need a nerf against dozers, should be just like empire cores and require 2 vindi's to kill them. Maybe 3.
Or 1 vindi while they're undeployed and 2or3 vindi's when deployed.

Should probably put that in the balance suggestions thread.. if it isn't already.
Sorry about my harsh response, it's typical of me to talk like that when I haven't put a serious look into it.

ALSO:

The issue is that minute men are THE anti everything infantry, and makes confed starts very.. well, not creative, and boring.

I'd like to see the service depot see some action.

Edited by: JonnyKnows

Minutemen are soft counters to everything, but they need support to be cost-effective in my opinion.

That second suggest is very well thought out, so we implimented it.

While we're on the subject of funds at the beginning of the game, can you make everyone start with one engineer? It'll make it more viable to scout with units other than dogs and bears. (because building a quick barracks gives you engineers and scouts, making it impractical to not build at the beginning of the game.)

It'll allow some leeway in the time while you build your barracks, allowing more diverse builds.

JonnyKnows wrote: OKAY, after some testing and realizing how powerful minute men are.....

Nice Idea!

Edited by: g.a

Minutemen are a staple of the Confederate early game because they are more Infantry based than other factions, and the Minutemen is the main combat Infantry.

Galgus wrote: Minutemen are a staple of the Confederate early game because they are more Infantry based than other factions, and the Minutemen is the main combat Infantry.

They should still be more diverse though, they shouldn't be like venus and be able to attack everything for the same damage, there should be preference to other infantry in certain situations.

No one objects to making everyone start with an engineer?

Edited by: g.a

In my opinion, you get a lot more out of Minutemen when you support them, which adds variety since there are a few options for that even in the early game.

Personally I support with a sniper in a Transport Truck.

I object to starting with an engineer. That just sounds bad in my opinion.

And please g.a, if you want to discuss a totally offtopic thing, make a new thread.

Okay, okay, I'll just make a new thread.

Edited by: g.a

about sniper in Transport Truck, unless it in some way have been nerfed I'll say OP ABUSE!!!

Refs are fine AS-IS. Ever tried using BASE DEFENCES? The Camo Pillbox is deadly early game, especially if the enemy surrounds it. The problem for a $6000 3 ref is that you can spam minutemen and go for an all in Minutemen + MCV rush. Very deadly.

Confederates are meant to 3 ref. 2 ref is essentially an all in early game rush build.

Edited by: go123452

go, you're like, half a month late. His revision of his idea was already put ingame.

JonnyKnows wrote: I'd like to see the service depot see some action.

How so? The Service Pad has many useful vehicles, which I personally, as well as many others, use extensively.

I personally wish I didn't have to get the thing- often all I want is a Mastiff Tank to support my Minutemen against Scout attacks and enemy armor.

And I'd really like Icarus from the start to defend against early air rushes. It's not about what we want, it's about what's balanced.