Sins of a Solar Empire is often described as a 4XRTS game, or a game that tried to merge the action and tactics packed gameplay of a Real time strategy game with the deep, complex, empire wide strategy of a 4X turn based game. It's up to debate whether Sins succeeded in this goal, but I think all can agree that of the 4Xs of "explore, expand, exploit, and exterminate", Sins is much more focused on the exterminate than on the others. This mod seeks to give more depth to the other 3Xs of the game by adding additional game elements or refining the existing ones to reward players who give more strategic thought to the non-combat side of the game. Combat will still be the center point of the game, but players will find that the non-combat options available will be much more rewarding. Spying, exploring, sabotage, diplomacy, culture, and economic development have all been added or changed in innovative new ways. Regardless of what you think Sins is, this is the 4XRTS it should have been.
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|Jul 10 2012, 1:35am Anchor|
Each faction like TEc Rebel and Loyalist must have more ship diferrenses then corvett and titan. For exampleTEC RebelsNew Capitalship - Specialises on long range attacks his abilities suposted to increase weapon range and decrease couldawn time of all nearby alliesNew Frigate - Specializes on battling large number of enemy vessels.TEC Loyalist New Capitalship - Specializes on anihillating enemy aircraft - all his abilities is for dawngrading enemy aircraftNew Frigate - Just like mobile engeneering station )))
|Jul 10 2012, 5:23pm Anchor|
While I do wish there were more ship differences with the factions as well, I'm afraid my rudimentary modeling skills are not really up to making something I'd consider worth adding to the game in that capacity. Once thing I do want to do at some point though is give each sub faction a unique hero unit that specializes in their style of play, so hopefully that will help somewhat.
|Aug 15 2012, 1:20pm Anchor|
I agree with making each faction more special. As a generic YES only offcource. Way too often we just see people slap on a new look and its just the same old, same old. Gets booring when everything is pretty much the same. But i was pleasantly surprised by your mod, lot of great stuff in there. How abouth adding some new figther/bombers that can be researched and some orbital weaponry. Keep it up!
|Aug 16 2012, 1:59am Anchor|
By orbital weaponry do you mean more planet defense structures, or planetary weapons? The TEC Loyalists actually have planetary weapons as a unique tech for them that makes even undefended planets potentially much more difficult to take. The idea is that they are the only ones willing to invest in such expensive weapons and leave them on a planet.
Also in the latest news I've detailed some major chances to defenses and strikecraft. I'm actually trying to reduce people's use of strikecraft, they cause much of late game lag and in large numbers they are almost unstoppable, and in general I'm not trying to change the combat system too much, especially now when I'd bet later Sins patches will still change a lot of things.
That said, I might be open to giving specific subfactions unique squads if they can relate to their theme and tactics. Unfortunately at the moment strikecraft are a real pain to work with, compared to everything else there is not much you can do with them, but we'll see.
|Aug 17 2012, 4:02am Anchor|
Yeah i did mean landbased defensive systems like the ones you gave tec, i wrote that before i witnessed the marvel. Hehe. Very well implemented by the way.
|Aug 17 2012, 6:18pm Anchor|
Yeah, fighters have pretty minimal support for advanced things, probably as a result of them trying to let the game handle hundreds of them. No hyperspacing and no shields, and limited ability opportunities for example. I might add something like a jamming fighter for the TEC Loyalists, but there's not a lot of possibilities for other things.
The Ogrovs are good, and since they are so simple the AI does use them well (especially as TEC Rebels and they don't need research for them, and cruel AIs can spam them without economic consequences that a player would have). However the Adjudicator is not very good at taking out single tough targets like starbases, the one thing you really need them for, and the Vasari don't have one at all (the AI does not intelligent build starbases in hostile gravity wells). Further even for TEC players in single player, it is better just to build bombers, since those can be used on any target. Kols are not a great solution against real players, since they'll have far more bombers than the AI will ever build (100+ squads late game) and can kill a Kol in one pass. And even if you have multiple that do take them all out, you've inflicted no economic damage, they'll just retreat the carriers, and try it again once the bombers have regenerated.
|Aug 18 2012, 6:27am Anchor|
Yeah i reckon your right. Well you could always change the bombers to have a really-really slow respawn but making them stronger, would make it alot more realistic, but prob be hard for the ai to use properly and a nightmare to balance.
|Aug 19 2012, 12:24pm Anchor|
Afraid not, and even if there was a way we could add new interfaces, we have no way to tie planet upgrades to ability buffs (which is what planetary weapons would require). You could let ships or structure build them and crudely customize them, but you of course get some possible AI issues that making it a research wouldn't have. I may play around with the ship method (having a structure in orbit to coordinate planetary weapons seems a bit pointless to me).
|Aug 20 2012, 6:36am Anchor|
its darn annoying needing a structure in orbit yes. Could make it into a planetary defence orbitol headquarter kinda. where things are coordinated and such. Wouldent be too bad if it had a cool model a good name and a nice description hehe. How abouth just placing a structure there and making it invincible like the hero summoning structure, and then just making the structure invisible to the human eye. so for the player in essence it wont be there.
|Feb 10 2013, 8:40am Anchor|
I like your Mod but theres a little thing that i'd like you to add to the Galaxy Forge part: a list of all Bonuses and Artifacts with their GF and Ingame names, as well as their effects. I admit that i'm a Newb at using the GF, but such a list would make that a lot easier. As it is now, it's kind of a quiz for some of those Bonuses.
On another Note, those Spacemines of yours are pretty nasty stuff.
|Feb 11 2013, 6:49pm Anchor|
Yeah, I know those in game names are a pain, but their real names are not even in their files, they're all located in a completely separate file that is a pain to search through. So when I was adding them to the GF I had no idea what their real names were in most cases. :p Still, if you search in the mod's string file you should be able to figure out which file goes with what bonus.
Yeah, I guess TEC are the only ones who do not have a mobile mine solution, but I think having ships spawn mines on death is a bit too powerful. As combat is usually a pretty close range affair and frigates die all the time, you could fine yourself blocked by minefields very quickly, if not already in one. And I'm not sure if there is anyway to get such an ability to stay within the gravity well mine limit.
|Feb 11 2013, 7:30pm Anchor|
Or, you could do the whole thing via Trial and Error, like i do. I used the ingame Generator to construct a basic Map with around 50 planets and now im using that map to learn using the GF, including the additional things your Mod adds. Still a pain, but easier and actually more fun than grinding tons of scripted lines in some text editor^^
Ok, didn't know about that... in that case giving EITHER the HTS Colony or the Scout a Minelaying Ability would do the trick, right?
Next thing i saw while browsing the comments to E4X, was your mild dislike of the currently pretty overpowered Titan abilities... guess that really is a point for debate. Personally i like the Titans as they are, but still would like to have some unit capable of being a threat to it, without being a definite Titan-Killer. So I was thinking, basically a Titan is a giant Monstrosity of a ship, close in mass to a Starbase, which is an immobile Structure (except the Vasari one). So.. why not adding the Titan Class as a valid target to the long range Structure busters like Ogrov and its brethren from the Advent and Vasari? If i'm not totally wrong, that would give Players another option of engaging a Titan, than swarming the thing with Bombers and Corvettes.
While i'm at it: Corvettes, indeed a nice addition to the roster. but still something about their Abilities doesn't sit right with me. TEC Loyalist Corvettes scramble engines and Rebel Corvettes Weaponry? sorry doesn't seem right for me... Loyalists are defenders, they don't want to be shot at, Rebels are agressors, they dont want their prey to flee. At least thats what i think.
|Feb 11 2013, 9:06pm Anchor|
Yeah, though us modders would sometimes like a scripting language to be able to do stuff, for maps Sins is pretty nice. If you edit the GalaxyScenarioDef file in the galaxy forge folder in Notepad, the section under the line "planetItemTypeCount" contains the names for all the bonuses in the lines like (designName "Phase:Module:Cannon"), so you can change them to something more descriptive if you want.
Yeah, colony frigate is actually a good idea. I'll likely do that if I don't come up with anything more fitting.
Yeah, I was going to rework them for a time, but that was before the Resetting Titan levels minimod. For single players at least, that change makes titans a lot more manageable. So for now I'll probably just direct players who think titans are too strong to use that, while people like you can continue to use them the way they are. I'll likely revisit them after the final patch of Rebellion, but for now I won't push any strong changes to them.
Actually, the TEC Rebels Corvette is offensive, not defensive. It's ability makes enemies take more damage from Physical Weapons, not reducing the damage done by the enemies' physical weapons. There is another modifier that increases the damage of physical weapons but that is only on the Sova Carrier. Subtle difference there.
The TEC Loyalists Corvette is actually more useful than I thought. I played a multiplayer game with them this weekend and that speed debuff unexpectedly allowed me to kill my opponents first colony cap before it could escape. Without it he would have managed to retreat it. I agree it doesn't fit them very well though. Do you think a range debuff might be better (forcing the enemy to get in closer to your defenses)?
|Feb 12 2013, 6:29am Anchor|
A range debuff... well, that sounds good. Say, is stacking debuffs possible in Sins? if so, would it be possible to turn that range debuff into a 5 stack, where each hit by a Corvette adds 5% to it? If that in itself is too strong, adding a "Chance on hit" of about 25-50% might help balance it out.
what do you think? acceptable or too overpowered?
Edited by: yaohu
|Feb 12 2013, 1:06pm Anchor|
|Feb 13 2013, 4:17am Anchor|
in that case i can't wait to see the next version of E4X.
I'll edit this Post in case i stumble over another idea while playing with the GF and Sins. Unless someone else posts something first^^
PS: Somehow i got interested in looking into the files myself, to see whats possible or not. I hope you don't mind me using your Mods files as a reference to how a mod is built.
Edited by: yaohu
|Feb 18 2013, 9:40pm Anchor|
I'll mention a few of the things that Distant Stars had off the top of my head that may have contributed to it being such a beloved mod. Prepare for text wall, probably.
First of all - the added research. Heh, I know you've already mentioned that you would like to implement this eventually, perhaps via minimod, and your trees are already somewhat enhanced, but I can't overstate its importance. Particularly if one wishes to focus on all 4X aspects of the game, being able to invest more into those areas would go a long way - besides it is one of the main reasons people loved DS. I personally believe that not being able to research everything at once due to time and expense constraints not really present with a small tech tree adds a depth of strategy and forces one to maintain a balance.
Moving right along...: the pirates. Could be a personal thing, but I find them way, way too weak. They are little more than, I dunno, gnats? I'm going with gnats. Both in early game and with maximum severity. Now I understand an issue is keeping them relatively tame so TEC Rebels aren't unbalanced and able to chew the hell out of you. However, the current implementation seems to serve as little more than free experience. DS had stronger pirates - including up to several capital ships in their fleets and much stronger defenses at their base (severity-dependent, obviously).
Another thing I recall was planet ...bonuses? abilities? conditions? Whatever you call them - like the things that nebulae/storms/non-colonizeable map nodes have in the top right corner. Anyway, these seemed to make the planets at the edges of your empire, as well as specialized planets (i.e. a condition that gave +40% ship production speed), considerably more strategic. This also rewarded exploration for finding better chokepoints (i.e. on planets that gave major range/damage/antimatter/hull repair/etc buffs) as you do not have to capture the planet to see what condition it possess - but can have the goal of finding and doing so. Don't misunderstand me, I love the way in which planet exploration is considerably more important in this mod (similar to DS), but I think planet conditions add even more depth. (Non colonizeable space like gas clouds or whatnot also had more/different abilities/conditions.)
There were also more capture-able objects (which again rewards the exploration aspect of the game) - from ship graveyards containing derelict battleships and cruisers to the occasional star base or abandoned trade port/network in an unassuming nebula. This, combined with the potential added bonuses/abilities present in non-colonizeable space, could make such areas strategically as valuable as planets, and put more emphasis on space exploration, not only planet upgrades.
There were also like a bazillion more planets, but I don't think that's necessary at all - and besides hard as hell to balance properly.
One last thing I'll mention - just as a thought - DS had two other options with regards to strike craft.
EDIT: apparently each race's gunships and "EWS bombers" (electronic warfare, I think?) had different special abilities, according the wiki.
TL;DR. As I said, if you are looking to give safe haven to more of the DS refugees, the main thing is the extended research trees.
Other than that, I believe DS had a wiki page which described every added planet, condition, etc, etc and their specific values, as well as the changes to the pirates, and much else. You can probably glance at it if you are looking for inspiration. I'll see if I can find it.
EDIT: found it. this one lists the planet conditions, values, etc. Navigate for other articles.
Edited by: Anomandaris
|Feb 19 2013, 2:35pm Anchor|
Yeah, and they also had a lot of people complaining about the said strong pirates. I don't know, in my opinion there is no middle ground with pirates. If I were to make them harder as many people would complain as were glad they're tougher. They are going to get a little change in the next patch, but it really shouldn't make them harder. For another mod I'll be totally reworking the pirate system, so if I discover anything cool with that I may come back and try it in E4X.
Yes, I remember that with Distant Stars, but I wasn't too impressed with how they implemented it. Why the heck is my ships attack range being changed just because it is my homeworld? It just seemed like they tried too hard to give every planet some special ability, and in doing so they took away from the planets that had really interesting abilities.
There are special planets in E4X that use such abilities, mainly Industrial and Agricultural planets, but I don't intend to give such abilities to every or even more planets. That way when you find planets like this they really feel like unique additions to your Empire. That said, because the sort of "Default" planets primarily for population and extractors have already been added, any new planets I had will likely have more such abilities to help them stand out.
Yeah, ship graveyards were another thing from Sins plus. I may do something like that, but I'd want it to be something unique, not using the same model's and Vanilla Sins' ships.
I'm was already thinking about adding the trade ports in non-colonizeable gravity wells too, it is annoying to have to build a starbase for no reason other than extending your trade lanes.
Yeah, from the list it looks like most of them are just variants of the Sins plus planets. That mod was not balanced very well, and I've only used some textures from it but always change the stats to be more in line. I think if you ignore the all the dwarf/giant variants though, there's really about the same amount of planets in both mods.
|May 8 2013, 3:01pm Anchor|
Have any of you guys seen the star systmes in StarDrive? Is it posible to make them like that in Sins) And other thing, makeing a realistic star map, where volcanic planets är close to the star and ice are far away?
|May 8 2013, 5:29pm Anchor|
I have not heard anything about Stardrive, no. It is possible to make random maps more or less conform to things like that though (ice only far from the star, terrans in the habitable zone, volcanics near the star). However, it is really more of a map than a mod thing, but I'm adding some new Random maps in the next version anyway, maybe if I have time I'll mess with a proof of concept.
|May 9 2013, 3:38am Anchor|
Okay i understand! Looking forward to does maps. Here is a link about stardrive Strategyprime.net
|May 9 2013, 5:00pm Anchor|
|May 11 2013, 4:58am Anchor|
Well when you enter a new system in SD everything is open, like when you eneter a planet system in Sins.
And a other exmpel is, if you want to travel to planet D and you are at planet A, you need to go to planet B and C to, to travel to D in Sins.
In SD you do not need to do that, the star systems are like a sandbox. And the planets in SD are moveing around there star i SD makes it even more awesome xD
Edited by: Evilonesix
|May 11 2013, 2:08pm Anchor|
The beta of the original Sins of a Solar Empire actually had orbiting planets and more realistic space travel and all that. It was changed to the current system however because apparently no one found it very fun. It was a management nightmare to keep track of as your frontline planets were constantly moving and a lot of times you just had to wait for your planet to get to the right point to launch an attack. So for better or worse, we have the phase lane system now, and beyond making custom maps where all planets are connected like the old Stars mod did there's not much I can do about it. Sorry. :-/
Edited by: GoaFan77
|May 11 2013, 6:54pm Anchor|
as requested by Goafan 77 to post these ideas here :
Any chance in the future you guys can add more ship types to all factions ? I just feel sad when i see "empty" ship slots
heres some ideas on new ship types :
1) a capital ship type that is between a battle ship and a titan : dreadnaughts lol
2) a stealthy sabotage cruiser between the engineer type of ship we currently have and a envoy class (i mean using abilities in game that can be truly invisible by the radar or even visually speaking and does a lot of sabotage work on enemy space stations / structures and including laying mines / setting explosive charges behind enemy lines / systems , and has abilities to sabatage planets loyality / productivity etc (like how envoys can boast planets , but the opposite)
add ability / tech to scout ships and star bases to detect them more often (they can still be see able in point blank range but that means they usually have done what they are sent out to do and they can die now )
3) convoy raiding frigate (well pirate really ) that can disguised as civilian ships until attacking (super fast and well armed compared to civlian ships and has abilities to disrupt trade , and even capture the goods on the trade ship back to you)
4) Torpedo (of all types including energy) frigates ? (of that sort of nature , need to get super close but has a very high damage output if succeed in attacking)
5) A area effect force field generating Crusier (of that nature) , a cruiser that does mostly defense work for fleets or stations (including detecting of stealthy things), this makes fleet battles more "sci fi" feel to what pp are use to
6) A Melee oriented Capital ship ? it be fun to see a ships sole design is to use mass / armour / special shields / close combat weapons to ram / eat / crush / smash etc other ships
GoaFan77 16hours 5mins ago replied: Hey whitewolf, thanks for the ideas. If you have any more or if you want to have a long discussion on these though, you could make a post in the request forum? I like to keep these in one place. Moddb.com Thanks!
1. The hero units in this mod are to me already between capitalships and titans. You only get one of them and most of them are more powerful than capitalships.
That said, I would like to add at least 1 new capitalships per race, though I'm not sure if that is currently plausible at this point.
2, 3 & 4. I actually wanted to add a "Submarine" type frigate that would basically be a combination of all of these, as well as a anti-titan unit. However, true stealth is impossible in Sins, and more importantly, the guy I was hoping would help make the models got busy with other things, so its probably not likely to happen anymore.
5. Isn't this basically what the Iconus Guardian is? Every faction has a defensive support cruiser of some sort, and I don't think giving every faction something like the guardian will really help game diversity, which would be the whole point of adding new ships.
6. I don't know, most ships in Sins don't like moving once they get a firing position, I think a melee ship would be ridiculously powerful, as most of their targets wouldn't be agile enough to run away and still shoot. Also, animations are very hard to do in Sins (why you don't see rotating turrets), so it would have to be set up something like Maw. Maybe for a Vasari capitalship but I don't think it would fit the TEC or Advent well.
I really would like to add more units, but right now this project sadly does not have a modeler and/or texturer. I do have a few models I am going to use for things like random encounters or a new unit/fighter for a specific faction, but I don't have enough to add a whole new class of ship to all the factions.
ive added that to the post as asked
1) well the point was i just wanted to see new ship types for AI to use , and i dont like hero units in any game really , because they become such a gimick and becomes a attention seeker for the player because of constant baby sitting (and have a upgrade path set also makes it a bit boring for me)
and i just want a standard ship i know i can build when i have the resources and not rely on spawning
i feel you man , i know a few modders myself , plus i work for some mods before and atm (COH) . Well if you want i can try to see if anyone i know is interested in making models (also i know a lot of mods out there use old models from really old games (like home world series etc) not that im suggesting anything but just putting it out there , and i think there are ship models out there that are just user created that might be usable , but need to dig into that)
but yeah a "Sub" type of ship is very needed and interesting in game
5)humm well what i was thinking was just a ship that has a lot of Mass Area (large area and i do mean LARGE) effect abilities (which doesnt have to be that defensive , i was just putting the example) , which isnt that common in game . you can even put a build cap on these ships , treating them as prototype or experimental ships (or in real world examples , a ship built for a specific encounter / event / problem one has to deal with)
6 ) yeah i understand , but at least a boarding type of ship ? i know the Moddb.com maelstrom mod for deplomacy has ships that can do that , maybe having a look at that ? im sure all races in logic has a need for a ship type that helps taking over precious cargos or ships when needed
also just a little addition idea :
Why doesnt upgrading the tactical slot also help planets ( i do mean the planet itself) defend itself ? should the planet force stationed on the ground have Missiles / guns etc that can defend itself in a moderate range in orbit ? im not trying to make orbital defense obsolete but it would be nice knowing a single seige frigate cant blow up a whole planet without taking any damages (with no orbital weapons present) at all
Edited by: whitewolfmxc
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