All of the thanks to goes to Carnius for a great mod, I am thankful that you are kind enough to make this for me and the rest of the CNC community, without caring about any kind of pay or reimbersment. I and, I believe the rest of the CNC community really just want to say, THANKS CARNIUS! and thank you for coming to TEF.

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Suggestions for TE 1.5 (Groups : Tiberium Essence Fans : Forum : General Tiberium Essence Ideas : Suggestions for TE 1.5) Post Reply
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Jun 16 2013, 7:30am Anchor
kanesprophet wrote:if possible give gdi the ability to build concrete so nod cant send apcs and devils tounges into your base


firstly i dont think this is possible due to engine limitations, secondly i believe it would be unbalancing as it would be relatively cheap but also counter a lot of strategies. One of the reasons nod uses subterranean attacks and stealth is because their units have far less health compared to those of GDI, stealth is already easily countered. Even if concrete were possible (which i'm pretty sure it isnt), to make the subterranean attack easily counter-able too would render nod unplayable as a faction.

Edited by: M0nkfish

Jul 3 2013, 8:13am Anchor

Scrin balancing suggestions for 1.52. (or newer)  -from rewriten and edited Personal message from Oaks to 50predator50.

Scrin:
I would slightly increase armor,stamina together with effects of Light forcefield generator upgrade.
Decrease Explorer price from 1600 to 1500.
Decrease Growth accelerator price from 1500 to 1300-1200.
Decrease Ichor reactor Tiberium addition upgrade price from 600 to 500-450.
Decrease Disintegrator price from 400 to 350. (Were for 300 in 1.4.)
Decrease Seeker price from 900 to 850. (same as Scorpion; Seekers price were for 800 in 1.4)
Decrease Razorback price from 800 to 700. (Wolwerine is for 700; Razorback is Wolwerines inferior equal)
Decrease Shock trooper price from 800 to 700-600. (Correspoding to its faction equals-NOD,GDI missile squad)
The structure requirement of Stasis chamber for Shock trooper should be removed. (GDI,NOD missile squads equal)
Decrease Manta price from 1400 to 1200-900.(Supposedly superior to Scorpion,Seeker,Wolwerine,Goliath APC,Falcon;were for 1000 in 1.4.)
Decrease Devourer price from 1200 to 1100-1000. (Basilisk equal, Devourer could use higher tier structure requirement to correspond with Basilisk)
Decrease Stalwart price from 1200 to 1000-850. (Were for 1000 in 1.4)
Increase Stalwart anti-vehicle damage by 15-20%
Decrease Stormrider price from 1500 to 1400-1200.
Decrease Ravager gunship price from 1600 to 1400-1200.
Decrease Leviathan mothership price from 7500 to 6500-6000. (Only if Mammoth MKII will have same price)
Decrease Rift generator price from 7500 to 6000.(Hmm,seems like that in 1.4 were said that all superweapons will cost 7500.Skip this one)
Decrease Annihalator tripod (quadpod in 1.52) price from 3000 to 2600-2300. (Only if inferior to Mammoths upgraded railguns, Avatar self-upgraded weapons)
Decrease Reaver price from 1700 to 1600.
Increase Manta anti-vehicle damage by 20-30%
Decrease Light forcefield generator upgrade price from 3000 to 2500.
Decrease Heavy forcefield generator upgrade price from 5000 to 4000.
Increase health buff of forcefield generators by 15-20%
Tiberium hive upgrade should increase Buzzers(Buzzer hive) movement speed by 15-25%
Tiberium hive upgrade should increase Buzzer hive attack range from 400 to 500

GDI:

Increase Wolwerine price from 700 to 800.
Increase Jumpjet trooper price from 700 to 800.
Increase Missile trooper  price from 700 to 800.
Increase Vulcan tower price from 500 to 600-700.
Increase Sub-calibre rounds price from 2000 to 2500.
Decrease Wolwerine anti-vehicle damage by 25%
Decrease Goliath APC anti-vehicle damage by 25%
Decrease Jumpjet trooper anti-vehicle damage by 25%
Decrease Jumpjet trooper armor,stamina by 25-40%
Decrease Sub-calibre rounds upgrade effect on anti-vehicle capacity by 20%

NOD:
Increase Nod Missile squad price from 450-500.
Increase Nod Laser capacitor price from 2000 to 2500-3000

Its all mainly to balance the Scrin with GDI and Scrin will no more be such underdogs. 
If my balancing suggestion will cause inbalance with GDI vs Nod,then it needs more work.
"My" Scrin balancing vs Nod needs much more checking,informations and work. For now it should be acceptable and adequate.Since it changes the Nod only minimal.

Jul 3 2013, 5:42pm Anchor

Most of the changes are pretty good. Although I don't agree with most of the GDI ones, because if you change everything to what is on this list, GDI will become handicapped.

Smallchange
Smallchange GDI, 101st Airborn Division, Firehawk Pilot
Jul 3 2013, 10:45pm Anchor
Valherran wrote:Most of the changes are pretty good. Although I don't agree with most of the GDI ones, because if you change everything to what is on this list, GDI will become handicapped.

Yes, yes they will, SOOOO handicapped.

I like playing as GDI, and that would make it entirely impossible to do.

Jul 3 2013, 11:54pm Anchor

No, it will just make things balanced, sorry but the wolverine is an anti-infantry vehicle and should not be capable of taking out Scrin tanks with only one or two of them, Jumpjet troopers: also anti-infantry, yet, seemingly capable of easily taking out Scrin aircraft in groups. Missile troopers have huge range to out range base defenses. Goliath APC, yet again, another vehicle meant ONLY to be effective against infantry and aircraft, decreasing it's anti-vehicle firepower would be a wise thing to do.

Have you guys even tried versing the Scrin as the GDI? They don't even try properly, all your units stomp on them on Hard and Brutal. If you think things are balanced now, then you have absolutely no sense of balance whatsoever. Many of Scrin's units are weak and ineffective and too expensive, while GDI's units are cheap, fast and multipurpose.

I completely agree with you Oaks.

Edited by: 50predator50

Jul 4 2013, 12:30am Anchor

Keyword I said in my previous post, 50Predator50, was "MOST". Let's go over this in my view shall we:

GDI wrote:Increase Wolwerine price from 700 to 800.
Increase Jumpjet trooper price from 700 to 800.
Increase Missile trooper  price from 700 to 800.
Increase Vulcan tower price from 500 to 600-700.
Increase Sub-calibre rounds price from 2000 to 2500.

No, no, and no. The last thing GDI needs is a price increase, especially for that upgrade, that thing is core requirement for them.

GDI wrote:Decrease Wolwerine anti-vehicle damage by 25%
Decrease Goliath APC anti-vehicle damage by 25%
Decrease Jumpjet trooper anti-vehicle damage by 25%
Decrease Jumpjet trooper armor,stamina by 25-40%
Decrease Sub-calibre rounds upgrade effect on anti-vehicle capacity by 20%

This I only somewhat agree with, which is where the keyword "MOST" comes into play.

I somewhat agree with Wolverine, however 25% nerf to damage is too much, no more than 10% is acceptable. It takes A LOT of Wolverines to take down an armored target at a fast pace without casualties. If you were dumb enough to let someone build like 20 of these and pick off your tanks, that's your fault. I have never had a problem with them.

I agree with Goliath APC, that thing is stupid powerful against light armor. It is best suited as an AA/AI APC.

I agree somewhat with the Jumpjet Infantry, yes to the stamina nerf, no to the damage nerf, 25% is too much, 10-15% is more acceptable. Back in TS/FS, these guys were deadly to AG units in packs. It isn't much different in this MOD other than their insane stamina, back then they were dangerously weak to rockets, not so much currently here.

I DO NOT agree with Sub Caliber effect nerf. As said above, this upgrade is a core requirement. Nerfing the value by 20% makes it next to pointless to purchase for that amount of money, plus it makes bullet based units and Watch Towers completely useless mid game.

Jul 4 2013, 9:21am Anchor

Ah, GDI fanbois, we meet again. I am going to assume you don't play on Hard difficulty most of the time, and you're probably one of those guys who ramp their credits all the way up to 40k and vs Medium A.I.

Do you know what the A.I. does on Hard difficulty most of the time? They usually rape you with wolverines and missile squads early in the match, but unfortunately the Scrin units are too weak and too expensive and unless you are extremely aggressive and use a ridiculous tactic to beat them, you are likely to lose. Wolverines, APCs and Jumpjet infantry should NOT be able to take out tanks and vehicles so easily, it isn't 20 wolverines. It takes two wolverines, only two, to take out a single Scrin seeker tank, probably the same for the Manta if not an extra wolverine, it takes approximately 6-7 jump jet troopers to take out the Leviathan mothership rather quickly(I don't give a shit if it's six or seven, that doesn't matter, they're anti-infantry and this is the Scrin mothership), Wolverines + APC + Missile squads is a bullshit combination that can win you the game so early. Have you tried versing the Scrin as the GDI on Hard? It's laughable, rush them with wolverines and you win, it requires so little effort, the GDI are the most developed faction thus far into Tiberium Essence, they have a huge variety of units and their early game units are powerful.

The keyword "most" doesn't matter, because all the changes are necessary, it is likely that Oaks has done the same thing I have and put all the A.I. on easy and then captured their construction yards and tested all the units up against each other, which is how I found out how easy it was for GDI units to stomp the Scrin's weak, expensive and ineffective units.

The Wolverine, Jumpjet Infantry and APC need their anti-vehicle firepower toned the fuck down, or at least have the Scrin's units' HP raised and their expenses dropped. There shouldn't even be an upgrade that increases Wolverine's and APC's firepower, that's just overkill.

Starfox100
Starfox100 "Inferno Phoenix" field Commander
Jul 4 2013, 9:56am Anchor

Balancing of the scrin is good. but all the other things of GDI and Nod will totally de-balance it again. (EXAMPLE: a wolverine still needs to be capable to kill a nod buggy in a 1 on 1 fight, it did before in TS and will always do. If it kills 2. then it needs a nerf. AP rounds become another story)

Edited by: Starfox100

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Jul 4 2013, 11:03am Anchor
50predator50 wrote:Ah, GDI fanbois, we meet again. I am going to assume you don't play on Hard difficulty most of the time, and you're probably one of those guys who ramp their credits all the way up to 40k and vs Medium A.I.

I play on Hard or Brutal with 10k settings, and I am a Scrin player actually.

50predator50 wrote:Do you know what the A.I. does on Hard difficulty most of the time? They usually rape you with wolverines and missile squads early in the match, but unfortunately the Scrin units are too weak and too expensive and unless you are extremely aggressive and use a ridiculous tactic to beat them, you are likely to lose. Wolverines, APCs and Jumpjet infantry should NOT be able to take out tanks and vehicles so easily, it isn't 20 wolverines. It takes two wolverines, only two, to take out a single Scrin seeker tank, probably the same for the Manta if not an extra wolverine, it takes approximately 6-7 jump jet troopers to take out the Leviathan mothership rather quickly(I don't give a shit if it's six or seven, that doesn't matter, they're anti-infantry and this is the Scrin mothership), Wolverines + APC + Missile squads is a bullshit combination that can win you the game so early. Have you tried versing the Scrin as the GDI on Hard? It's laughable, rush them with wolverines and you win, it requires so little effort, the GDI are the most developed faction thus far into Tiberium Essence, they have a huge variety of units and their early game units are powerful.

The Scrin AI lose because they suck, even on Hard and Brutal mode, actual players know what they are doing. All the stuff I stated above still applies here regardless.

 

50predator50 wrote:

The keyword "most" doesn't matter, because all the changes are necessary, it is likely that Oaks has done the same thing I have and put all the A.I. on easy and then captured their construction yards and tested all the units up against each other, which is how I found out how easy it was for GDI units to stomp the Scrin's weak, expensive and ineffective units.

The Wolverine, Jumpjet Infantry and APC need their anti-vehicle firepower toned the fuck down, or at least have the Scrin's units' HP raised and their expenses dropped. There shouldn't even be an upgrade that increases Wolverine's and APC's firepower, that's just overkill.


Expenses dropped, yes. HP raise? No. Do the said GDI units above need damage nerfs? Yes, but do not go overboard as said above.

Jul 4 2013, 12:54pm Anchor

Ok, here comes my reply.Thank you for your comments,discussions and criticism as well. Its most appreciated. I am relieved that you like "my" Scrin balance.
I am aware that GDI changes are questionable and maybe even goes overboard.

Jumpjet trooper-everyone knows it, that they are OP. Their stamina and armor is far too big. They shouldnt be effective againts vehicles.
Generally, if GDI will be nerfed in their might and power then their prices will not be needed to increase.

Sub-calibre rounds upgrade price increase-most questionable of them all, I agree we could let it be as it is. But only if Wolwerine,JJ trooper anti-vehicle effectivity will be decreased. I agree that nerfing them more than 15% would be overboard.

Wolwerine-His price increase is absolute necessity.Must correspond with Razorbacks,Seekers,Scorpions.His anti-vehicle capacity,especially with Sub-calibre rounds must be decreased atleast about 15%. 

Problem is, that most Scrin vehicles are light or medium. They lack relliable units.Manta is inferior and overpriced.Annihalator is overpriced.So my suggestion is to use Conqueror, make the ninth common from factory, decrease his model animation size, give him health bigger than Mantas,yet slightly lower than Titans.Price would be 1200-1400. Structure requirements would be Stasis chamber, Nerve center,Gravity stabilizer.He would be melee unit,like flame tank with old vanilla Corruptor/Contaminator attack animation. Thus problem solved, most balancing would be suddenly almost needles. :D

Jul 5 2013, 3:57pm Anchor

Let me start by saying i agree with most of your scrin suggestions with the following exceptions:

Decrease Disintegrator price from 400 to 350. (Were for 300 in 1.4.)
These things are pretty awesome in swarms and the crush damage they cause on death is worth the extra cost particularly when you consider they are basic infantry


Decrease Seeker price from 900 to 850. (same as Scorpion; Seekers price were for 800 in 1.4)

These detect stealth and are quite resiliant as such are very useful so their price should probably stay where it is, but i can see where you're coming from with this one. I'd probably increase his rate of fire.

Decrease Shock trooper price from 800 to 700-600. (Correspoding to its faction equals-NOD,GDI missile squad)
The structure requirement of Stasis chamber for Shock trooper should be removed. (GDI,NOD missile squads equal)

Although it has similar abilities to human rocket infantry i'd say this unit more closely equals the blackhand due to it's ability to withstand assault and its versatility so therefore i believe the requirement for the stasis chamber should stay, however i agree that it's price should be dropped to 700. If the human rocket infantry has a scrin equivalent then i would argue that it is the Disintegrator even though the Disintegrator has no anti-air capability.

Decrease Devourer price from 1200 to 1100-1000. (Basilisk equal, Devourer could use higher tier structure requirement to correspond with Basilisk)
While it is an artillery unit like the Basilisk i see no reason for it to have i higher tech teir requirement (tiberium absorption seems like a natural ability for the scrin so i've got no problems with it being where it is in the tech tree) i think their should be variations between the factions in matters like this especially as the scrin have a differently structured tech tree anyway, i agree with a drop in price. I'd probably increase his rate of fire.

Decrease Stalwart price from 1200 to 1000-850. (Were for 1000 in 1.4)
The stalwart's price should remain the same if its effectiveness vs vehicles can be increased. The reason i say this is it has the potential to be a very versatile unit, and it's humanoid nature is kind of unique for the scrin (garrisonable like human infantry)

Decrease Leviathan mothership price from 7500 to 6500-6000. (Only if Mammoth MKII will have same price)
See my point re: the devourer tank, i believe there should be variation between factions in things like this to add variety


Decrease Annihalator tripod (quadpod in 1.52) price from 3000 to 2600-2300. (Only if inferior to Mammoths upgraded railguns, Avatar self-upgraded weapons)
We do not yet know how savage the quadruped will be and in addition the cheaper,better forcefield generator you propose would make these more cost-effective, perhaps give them tiberium absorption ability though (as devourer) instead or a reduction in price.

in addition to these id say two things re: scrin - the manta needs redoing considerably to make it far stronger in terms of both attack and armour. The corruptor on the other hand could do with being nerfed a little its too strong vs most things

I strongly disagree with most of your GDI suggestions (with the obvoius exception of the Jump-Jet Infantry) and i would say that the wolverine's effectiveness vs vehicles is plausable given that it has double changuns but perhaps the increase in price is neccessary, personally i'd leave the AP ammo upgrade untouched

Edited by: M0nkfish

Jul 6 2013, 7:24am Anchor

My balance suggestions are still only preliminary.This early version of it is premature,crude and I realized that it wents overboard. After consideration I am inclined to agree with Valherran,Smallchange,Starfox100, even it should dissapoint 50predator50. I dont want the Scrin to become OP at the expense of GDI. But still we feel that Scrin early,mid game could be smoother,easier for them. Absolute most of Scrin price decreases will be needless if Manta will be balanced and more relliable. I am aware that Manta is already good againts infantry.

Vehicles:
That would be for absence of Scrin heavy vehicle MBT,the only heavy vehicle between all those other which are light,medium,except the most expensive vehicle in game,the Annihalator.He has the same price as Epic infantry type unit.(Nod CC) I believe the health of units with changed models is and will stay the same.(Corruptor,the future Annihalator quadpod)
Corruptor is still slow,weak as he was in vannila.His size does not correspond with it.Even without his stretched legs,its one of the in health weakest yet in model the biggest Scrin vehicle.I am aware how versatile and good anti-infantry specialist he is.He even can quickly creates the armies of Contaminators.(who dont have their own vision and has OP attack,I might add)  We could,I'd say decrease Corruptors anti-vehicle damage,very slightly decrease his attack range to be more balanced if you want.
Still as first line front line unit,Corruptor will crumble nearly after only two shots from missile squad.Just like Devourer.I will probably not use Devourer even if his price would be decreased. Devourer is useless to me if he is not superior to Seeker\empty Goliath APC\Falcon.
Razorback also have stealth detection.Still look how much is Razorback inferior to Wolwerine.Nod raider buggy utter inferiority is justified only by that its the cheapest vehicle in game,movement speed,engineers hunting and some degree of anti-infantry help. Its AA is a joke. Even againts the OP cheapest air unit in game,the Jumpjet trooper. Annihalator.we whall see.we shall if he will need slight price decrease. Not radical,must be bigger than Juggernaut,Mammoth,self-upgrade Avatar. I just hope that it will correspond with health,damage,price of Tacitus archive units.

Infantry:
The absence of Scrin heavy infantry and inferiority of their infantry is different thing.The humankind factions has the advantage in garrisoning.Scrin dont have the infantry with both anti-armor,AA attack,which could be garrisonable from the start of the game.Means that the lack of "Scrin missile squad" is felt heavily.
Scrin dont have disc thrower/Black hand/Shadow squad equal.Hell, garrisoning the buzzers is waste of time,they have advantage even with ranged riflemen/militants. I would maybe gave Buzzer the squad of two,justified by price increase and probably remove the Combine with buzzers ability,which is strange and bugged in my opinion. Such strange substitute of by me suggested "Mobile Hive buzzer vehicle" Hmm,doesnt matter.
Shock trooper being equal to anti-infantry specialist the Black hand?? Shock trooper is the most inferior and overpriced infantry in game.I would rather swap positions between Shock trooper and Stalwart,give Stalwart AA,change the prices,structure requirements,damage,health to correspond and hurray we have the "Scrin missile squad".
The only supposed Scrin heavy infantry are Stalwarts.I noticed their big price is probably because of their extremely deadly albeit slow anti-infantry attack. Yet,they share the same problem of being vulnerable to common riflemen\militants and big price with Nod Cyborgs. More relliable and cheaper Black hands,thus superior to Zone troopers\Stalwart\Cyborg is felt there.
Disintegrators are more like anti-vehicle Black hand types to me. I will rather use them, than the supposed Scrin anti-vehicle\anti-air specialist the Shock trooper.Shock troopers AA is joke.Even swarms of both Disintegrators and Shock troopers are useless when there will be one or two mere squads of riflemen\militants. You will send in 10 buzzers and they will quickly crumble,one by one, to be killed by anything what is GDI and uses bullets. Even if GDI will suffer some casualties, you will send in whole bunches of Razorbacks,Seekers,Devourers only to be chopped by pair of missile squads,Wolwerines,Jumpjets.
Goliath APC,the best APC in game,I believe all its effectiveness,especially when loaded with Missile squad,Disc thrower,upgraded with ammo upgrade is fully justified with its big price and relatively smaller health. Seeker coming in,destroying the APC,albeit receing big damage is common thing to see.

Air:
Leviathan has price of 7500 because Mammoth MKII is for 6000 and has two self-upgrades to choice between,both for 1500.The math is easy here,Leviathan dont need to be changed. Scrin has probably the best airforce in game, so the so much radical price decreases of Scrin air units will not be needed.

GDI: I believe that defenses,MCV's,production structures,outposts,cranes,Tech centers could have the same price for all factions.Thus only the Vulcan tower would be from 500 credits to 600. Anti-vehicle damage of Wolwerine,would be justified by from neccesity to perhaps of price increase from 700 to 800. As it will correspond to Manta buff and Jumpjet nerf. Sub-calibre round upgrade for 2000 will stay untouched.

Nod:
Laser capacitator upgrade for 2000 will stay untouched. Missile squad from 450 to 500 only perhabs,just a possibility.Lets skip it for disscusion for 1.53.

Scrin balancing suggestions 2.0            :D
Decrease Explorer price from 1600 to 1500.(faction equals are for 1500)
Decrease Growth accelerator price from 1500 to 1400,or untouched.(not 1300-1200)
Decrease Ichor reactor Tiberium addition upgrade price from 600 to untouched.(I would gave that upgrade only to Warp sphere,Scrin PP to be as in 1.4.)
Decrease Disintegrator price from 400 to untouched.(not 350)
Decrease Seeker price from 900 to 850. (Only perhaps or untouched,skip it for 1.53.)
Decrease Razorback price from 800 to 700. (Necessity)
Decrease Shock trooper price from 800 to 700. (Necessity)

The structure requirement of Stasis chamber for Shock trooper should be removed.(I will keep this open for disscusion)
Decrease Manta price from 1400 to 1200.(Necessity, must be buffed slightly in health,nicely in anti-vehicle damage)
Increase Manta anti-vehicle damage by 15-20%,maybe even just by 10-15% (not 20-30%)
Decrease Devourer price from 1200 to 1000. ( or untouched,lets give both options the chance of fifty-fifty)
Decrease Stalwart price from 1200 to untouched (not for 1000-850, well, keep it for open disscusion, still not sure what should happen with them)
Increase Stalwart anti-vehicle damage by 15-20% (or 10-15%)
Decrease Stormrider price from 1500 to 1400.(Necessity)
Decrease Ravager gunship price from 1600 to 1500-1400.(Not 1400-1200)

Decrease Leviathan mothership price from 7500 to untouched.(and not a quarter lower,MKII can stay cool)
Decrease Rift generator price from 7500 to untouched.(all superweapons should have the same price,cooldown)
Decrease Annihalator tripod (quadpod in 1.52) price from 3000 to 2800. (only perhaps, not 2600-2300)
Decrease Reaver price from 1700 to 1600.(doesnt matter, who cares? xd)

Decrease Light forcefield generator upgrade price from 3000 to untouched (not 2500)
Decrease Heavy forcefield generator upgrade price from 5000 to untouched (not 4000)
Increase health buff of forcefield generators by 10% (not neccesary,not 15-20%)
Tiberium hive upgrade should increase Buzzers(Buzzer hive) movement speed by untouched (not 15-25%,this upgrade already increases movement speed by 50%)
Tiberium hive upgrade should increase Buzzer hive attack range from 400 to untouched (not 500, doesnt matter)


GDI:

Increase Wolwerine price from 700 to 800. (only perhaps,or untouched)
Decrease Wolwerine anti-vehicle damage by 10-15% (not 25%, quite neccesary)
Increase Jumpjet trooper price from 700 to untouched (not 800, unit shall be balanced in the name of Tiberium essence)
Decrease Jumpjet trooper anti-vehicle damage by 10-15% (not 25%, only perhaps)
Decrease Jumpjet trooper armor,stamina by 25-40% (Hellbent necessity)
Increase Missile trooper  price from 700 to untouched (not 800)
Increase Vulcan tower price from 500 to 600 (faction equal are for 600, necessity)
Increase Sub-calibre rounds price from 2000 to untouched (not 2500, GDI can stay cool)
Decrease Sub-calibre rounds upgrade effect on anti-vehicle capacity by untouched (not 20%, stay cool and tight GDI)
Decrease Goliath APC anti-vehicle damage by untouched (not 25%, justified by big price, lower health)

NOD:
Increase Nod Missile squad price from 450 to untouched (not 500)
Increase Nod Laser capacitor price from 2000 to untouched (not 2500-3000)
Stay cool and tight Nod,you're lucky to have both Carnius and Kane who made you cheaper xd)

Jul 6 2013, 10:21am Anchor

for me the only thing that makes GDI OP is their jump jet troopers! which are to effective against everything and die very hard as an infantry!
Scrin need some buffs though

Jul 6 2013, 12:27pm Anchor
Oaks wrote: We could,I'd say decrease Corruptors anti-vehicle damage,very slightly decrease his attack range to be more balanced if you want.


this seems entirely reasonable

Oaks wrote: I will probably not use Devourer even if his price would be decreased. Devourer is useless to me if he is not superior to Seeker\empty Goliath APC\Falcon.

Perhaps in addition to the price reduction the Devourer could be given a blink ability to reduce his vulnerability to things like rocket infantry, even if this ability where to be added i still think he should stay where he is in the scrin tech tree.

Oaks wrote: Hell, garrisoning the buzzers is waste of time,they have advantage even with ranged riflemen/militants. I would maybe gave Buzzer the squad of two,justified by price increase and probably remove the Combine with buzzers ability,which is strange and bugged in my opinion. Such strange substitute of by me suggested "Mobile Hive buzzer vehicle" Hmm,doesnt matter... ...You will send in 10 buzzers and they will quickly crumble,one by one, to be killed by anything what is GDI and uses bullets.

call me crazy if you like but i had an idea regarding this problem before, not sure whether its possible to code: what if the "combine with buzzers" ability was changed so that instead of vehicles being able to fuse with buzzers, buzzers where able to fuse with each other - creating a larger ball of buzzers that can take more punishment, this could be repeated multiple times (lets say 5 max) to create a larger more resiliant ball of buzzers, but with no increase in its attacking strength (effectively increasing the squad size each time the ability is used). This would help them survive GDI's hail of bullets better, and seems to make more sense to me than fusing with a tank but i'm not sure it can be coded for.

Oaks wrote: Shock trooper being equal to anti-infantry specialist the Black hand?? Shock trooper is the most inferior and overpriced infantry in game.I would rather swap positions between Shock trooper and Stalwart,give Stalwart AA,change the prices,structure requirements,damage,health to correspond and hurray we have the "Scrin missile squad".

I'm not suggesting the shock trooper has similar abilities to the blackhand, what i meant was that its definately closer to a tier 2 unit than a basic unit so i would disagree with comparing it to basic rocket infantry, my apologies if this was unclear. Your idea of the Shock Trooper and stalwart swapping positions is indeed a very interesting one, i can see it working well. However if this swap were to take place i think the stasis chamber would have to remain a prerequisite for the stalwart, as his humanoid shape gives him the ability to do things that other scrin just cant achieve, obviously his hp and damage would have to be adjusted and he'd be given AA capability but i'd also be anxious to see that he would keep the ability to use his "blades" to attack - likewise with the shock trooper in a more elevated position would have to have boosted armour and attack considerably and removal of his AA capability but also retaining his ability to blink

Oaks wrote: I believe that defenses,MCV's,production structures,outposts,cranes,Tech centers could have the same price for all factions.

i think this would strip away variety between the factions and homogenise everything too much, after all each side has its different approaches and different ways of building things so logically costs for buildings that perform the same function would differ slightly from faction to faction (unless GDI and NOD hire the same building contractor!) i think with things being different across the different factions it adds more depth and richness to the TE world.

Edited by: M0nkfish

Jul 7 2013, 7:26am Anchor

Corruptor anti-vehicle,attack range - done

Devourer prerequisite untouched.Price decrease from 1200 up to 1000.Optional. Blink upgrade\ability added.Interesting idea.

Buzzers Combine with vehicle already exists.Combine with infantry probably shouldnt be such big scripting problem.Problem is to combine more than buzzer to another.5 of them together? Questionable.   It also would require to adjust the Swarm SP. And that is exactly why I am suggesting Buzzer squad of 2 up to 4,with price increase from 200-300 (same as riflemen,militants are for 250) 
Buzzer hive would stay untouched;both Buzzer hive,Buzzer "squad" attack power would stay untouched.

Shock trooper They are T2 only in price. Are their anti-air,anti-vehicle capabilities atleast on par on Seeker? I would doubt that. Disintegrators in squad of 5 are atleast to do some damage to infantry before dying. I finally for the first time,yesterday saw how they were rolled over and vehicle paid by its life. Is Shock troopers life worth a damn? They probably cant defeat even Raider buggy. Certainly they can help you with Titans,Attack bikes,Falcons.But thats about all. 
To whom they should be a faction equal than to Missile/Militant rocket squads?
I am out of ideas how to adjust the Scrin to remove Humankind factions advantage in garrisoning, effective anti-vehicle,AA infantry.GDI,Nod not having prerequsite for them are doing very vulnerable targets from Scrin vehicles,air from the start of the game.  GDI has advantage in ranged garrison clearing.From the safety of APC. Nod has relliable,anti-infantry effective, melee to mid ranged garrison clearing,again from the,ehm "safety" of Scarab APC xd  That could solved by "Buzzer squad".
The swap positions of Stalwart and Shock trooper has big issues with it.  Lets say,ok, We have Stalwart with anti-vehicle,anti-air instead of anti-infantry, his price,attack,health, adjusted.Blink upgrade\ability,melee blades ability removed. We have "Scrin missile\rocket squad now. Will he be in Scrin arsenal later,with Stasis chamber prerequisive?  Ok,lets say yes.Oh,my dream or obssesion to adjust Scrin tech-tree to be much the same as human faction is fading. xd
Now what should happen with Shock trooper?  For Stalwart is now using his plasma rifle to strike down planes and vehicles.Instead of tiberium integration upgrade Stalwart would be using Tiberium enhancement upgrade.  What health,attack, attack animation, price,prerequisitive should Shock trooper use?
He would probably still using plasma discs effective againts vehicle,to some degree to air. We cant expect that he will be using old vanilla attack animation, that gained AA by old Plasma discs upgrade.Should we change him into heavy infantry with anti-infantry attack? I would rather avoid of giving plasma discs to Stalwart. What should we do with Shock troopers? 
We also cant expect that Disintegrators and\or Shock troopers will suddenly be able to garrison structures\bunkers.Or shoot from APC"s, as I am not counting the Ravager gunship with no firing ports and loading/unloading units not fast enough to be "flying APC".

Faction structures prices
Oh I am aware that TE is about variety and that it is changing step by step from mod into conversion.
Absolute most of prices between all factions are already same. With maybe very few differences of 100 credits. I werent double-checking all the structures.
But certain is that all Factory type,Refinery type,Tech center type,Airfield type,Radar type,Crane type, Harvesters already has the same price.
I didnt checked it, but there probably is the difference only between Scrin and\or Nod Barracks type structure GDI one of 100 credits (500-600)
Only other difference is Scrin packed flying MCV is for 3000. GDI,Nod ground MCV's for 3500.
All T2 anti-vehicle defenses are for 1200. All anti-air defences are for 800. Scrin and Nod anti-infantry defense are for 600, GDI one is for 500 and thats exactly why I want to be it also 600.  T3 defenses,all other prerequsive tech-up structures,even silos, power plants,upgrades for them; yes, I want them to be untouched and the faction diversity to stay as it is,until Carnius decides otherwise.So no fear.

And what you guys think about Scrin balance suggestions 2.0 ?  :D      
Some form and shape of it with which most fans would agree with, so we could finally introduce the suggestions to Carnius. Lets say, he could response us and later even,ehm, deal with it somehow, about on winter.Or let it skip for 2014. I am not rushing anywhere,demanding anything, I just think, the sooner he will see it, the better. Heheh and to adjust the unit description of Mammoth MKII, he is "able to shoot over walls", not "shood".    :D
Juggernaut is also able to shoot over walls, as Hover MLRS,somehow it isnt in his unit description. In Nod Cobra's case too.Somehow it cant shoot over walls.Strange thing for artillery. I always wondered why all units with anti-air attack are able to shoot down the planes, yet not able to shoot over walls.

Jul 8 2013, 7:37am Anchor

re: buzzers, i still think redoing the "combine" ability in the way i previously stated (if possible) would make more sense than simply increasing the squad number and price for several reasons (a) because the buzzer itself is supposed to be a cloud of much smaller units, i dont see why they would be in multiple separate clouds instead of 1 larger swarm (b) my idea doesnt alter the attacking capabilities of the buzzer no matter the size of the cloud, a cloud made up of 3 individuals would still have the same attack as a single individual buzzer cloud, only more defense (also regardless of its size, it could still only pursue one target as the buzzer does now); if there where to be multiple buzzer clouds in a squad like you suggest would they be capable of pursuing different targets? logic suggests they would. (c) combining individual buzzers seems more flexible because the player can decide how defensive he wants that unit to be, sacrificing the offensive capabilities of the individual to create a larger cloud with more defense. you could also increase cloud size in the middle of the battlefield to adapt to situations rather than relying on a set squad size - as i said before i dont know if this is even possible, dont get me wrong: increasing the squad size is a possible solution, but it would logically make more sense to do this instead of making buzzer squads when you consider the nature of the buzzer.

re: swapping the stalwart and shocktrooper positions in the build tree i still think its an inspired idea and have the following suggestions; lets start with the stalwart:

In his new lower position the stasis chamber remains a prerequisite as does the nerve center (primarily because of his humanoid nature) obviously his armour and HP are adjusted accordingly. He can garrison in buildings like a human and if he's using his blaster to take out planes and tanks i suggest that he does not gain the "blink" ability anymore but instead benefits from the particle accelerator upgrade for his blaster, he retains the tiberium integration upgrade and retains his "blades" (they are simply too cool to get rid of), instead of using them as he does now to deal heavy damage to vehicles/infantry he could use them to do a melee attack on infantry at very close range, this would only be a little more effective than the standard riflemans attack and he'd have to get close so he'd still be weak vs infantry. Also i'd up his movement speed just slightly. Price: 750-850

Now for the shock-trooper:

In his elevated position in the tree the shocktrooper still retains his ability to blink, he's also considerably faster (slightly slower than the mastermind) with boosted HP, continues to benefit from tiberium integration. He would continue to use discs to attack vehicles (not aircraft, as seeker) but when it comes to infantry he would use a manta-like lightening beam. The idea is that his very fast speed and blink ability makes up for his inability to garrison and the lightening beam has considerable range making him ideal for taking out even advanced infantry. With these changes he becomes more like shadow team equivalent. his prerequisite becomes the Technology assembler. Price: 1100 - 1250

I know this is slightly off topic but re: Manta i think it should be made into the scrin's only heavy "tank-type" unit in the standard production queue, all that needs doing is its HP & armour requre a considerable boost, while its already good vs infantry and can create ion storms i also propose that it could use its lighening as an "improvised EMP" against a single hostile vehicle, with a balanced cooldown time, also perhaps its effectiveness vs vehicles could be slightly increased.

Edited by: M0nkfish

Jul 8 2013, 1:35pm Anchor

Buzzer: Ahh,so thats your idea. But only if possible. I saw absurd situations how Buzzer hive attacks riflemens,riflemen managed to repel them,Buzzer hive created new ones and attacked riflemen again,the situation resulted in unending circle.I saw it many times, how Buzzers from Buzzer hive are uncontrollable and unclickable.Even more absurd is one Buzzer hive attacking another-a petty war. Though,we certainly cant have one gigantic super strong,super fast ball of Buzzer entities,but their squad could be tight. I always wondered why the 20 units are taking so much space,yet are supposed to be nearly impercebtible to the eye. Why they dont merge like Protoss templars into Archon? Certainly,looking on herds of individuals moving somewhere in tight formation is eyecandy feast to the eyes.But they could do so even in not loose but tight squads, their health buffed,so they will not be dying one by one by dozens in mere seconds. If we would have ability that up to 5 buzzers can combine together,gradually increasing in health and size,then killing them shouldnt be that you wasted 1000 credits in one shot. Instead, the health of entity would be gradually weakening until one common buzzer remains. Just that the idea of ehmm,somehow tight made squad would be easier.
Or we could let them be and cram the place with mobile Buzzer hive vehicle. "Hive vessel",or "Buzzer hive vessel" I would call it xd. One bigger Buzzer entity made of many,instead of multiple separate individuals,that is a genius and briliant idea. But it would have big troubles with scripting and balancing.But squad is always the squad.No matter the health capacity,missing squad member means weaker squad. I saw many times, how my units are focusing fire one one squad member infront of some neutral structure,the rest of squad behind the structure and the infantry squad actualy shows 2 health bars. Even if fully healed,until the squad will be reffiled,the missing squad member means that the infantry squad will still have only 75% of its health. I would decrease buzzer model animation and would 4 small buzzers in squad,yet, would do it to look it like its a one common buzzer.

Stalwart:  Agree. Hmm,maybe his melee blades ability could be "manual garrison clearing" ability. Isnt it already?

Shock trooper:   It sounds good.His AA would be removed at the expense of Stalwart.But I never saw a unit using two attack animations.One on vehicles,one on infantry..But how could that be done?  Maybe rather, he would be the" infantry version of Manta"  Lightning for both targers.The range of Manta is pretty standard of any MBT. Shock trooper rather the equal of light,multipurpose infantry like Shadow squad or Snipers? Instead of heavy infantry? I would give them stealth when standing still, to correspond with stealth of both Shadows and Snipers.   Well,we would have not passive but manual and melee clear garrison of Stalwart. And for missing "Scrin C4 ability", I would give Scrin the second commando unit.Which would be Stalwart commando which I mentioned in my comments and in Moddb.com  with that "ranged C4 on vehicles" ability disscusion.

Manta: Fully agree. The" improvised EMP" is actualy already possesed by the proton beams of Annihalator. I think Devourers proton beam has it too. Its relatively unknown.Its supposedly usable even againts structures,but the Tripod uses it only when in small distance (the already disscused "third unused" Tripods tentacle) and its very inferior to GDI Shockwave grenades upgrade of Falcon and RPG tower. IDK how it will be for the Quadpod, he will probably using all three proton beams and I think its attack animation were changed. Quadpod attacks from his horns on his forehead.
Images.wiki.wegame.com  and  Media.desura.com   
But yes, I fully agree with this balancing of Manta. xd

Jul 8 2013, 4:42pm Anchor
Oaks wrote:Buzzer entity made of many,instead of multiple separate individuals,that is a genius and briliant idea. But it would have big troubles with scripting and balancing.But squad is always the squad.No matter the health capacity,missing squad member means weaker squad


Problems with scripting? perhaps its impossible. Problems with balance? i doubt it. I cant foresee any balance issues with this as the attack would not increase through multiple combinations, even if there are a lot of individuals in the entity i don't imagine they'd be too defensive, particularly vs GDI's bullets or the tiberium particle beam of NOD's base defenses.
Regarding the probable difficulties in scripting this, i have a few suggestions (although they might be a crap one as i haven't coded for real in about a decade {world builder scripting doesn't count!}):

BUZZER COMBINATION METHOD 1
Consider the way in which the human barracks structures replenish missing squad members, i suggest when you purchase the buzzer infantry you buy an individual cloud of them which are exactly the same as they are now but in reality its actually a depleted squad (so it would show 20% health when emerging from the portal). Scrin portals don't replenish squads like human equivalent so when another buzzer infantry uses the "combine" ability on another he replenishes the target buzzers squad by 1, then disappears similar to the way an engineer does when capturing a structure (so the target buzzer's health would now show 40%, and the cloud seems larger due to "tight grouping of individuals", as you suggest in the previous post). The problem with this is i'm not sure if you can replenish a squad by 1 or whether you have to fully heal them, but i suppose you loose individuals from a squad separately so perhaps you can replace them separately too. The other possible stumbling block is getting the portal to dispense an already damaged unit - but in theory it seems entirely possible and definitely worth a shot... the only other thing with this is that when the squad is damaged and a new individual joins he might heal the existing damage within the squad, i'm not sure if this would happen but i can live with it if it occurs, (could be explained by the swarm gaining strength in numbers or something) what i'm anxious to avoid however is the squads attack increasing when new individuals are added, i'm not sure if there is a way to circumvent this but perhaps its possible.

BUZZER COMBINATION METHOD 2
Another (better, simpler) approach to this problem is to consider the way the old NOD Avatar works in vanilla C&C3 (being able to canibalise other NOD units to upgrade itself). In this method the buzzer is an individual unit, not part of a squad depleted or otherwise, let me explain through example: You use your Portal to create two buzzers, lets call them Buzzer A and Buzzer B, right now the both have full health and can move and attack independently. Now Buzzer A uses its combine ability on Buzzer B which means it moves to Buzzer B's location and kills it (just as the Vanilla Avatar would kill a targeted flame-tank) but the act of killing Buzzer B with the combine ability grants Buzzer A an armour bonus - note that Buzzer A's health remains the same, but a secondary cloud of buzzers appears close to Buzzer A, giving the illusion that Buzzer A's swarm has increased in size, (just as the flamethrower from the tank would appear on the vanilla avatar) but note that its still an individual unit not a "squad". Just as the avatar could upgrade multiple times Buzzer A can do so also, combining with another buzzer you create or even finding a hostile buzzer to combine with, each time Buzzer A is granted an armour bonus and appears to grow in size and can do this perhaps 4 or 5 times before reaching its maximum "size". This is my prefered method of buzzer combination as not only does it seem a lot simpler than method 1 bu it also avoids the possibility of attack increasing with squad size and possible healing glitches, dispite the numerous issues with this i think if possible it would be a lot cooler and certainly add more flavour than simply adding a squad.
 

Oaks wrote:Stalwart: Agree. Hmm,maybe his melee blades ability could be "manual garrison clearing" ability. Isnt it already?

yes and yes.

Oaks wrote:Shock trooper: It sounds good... ...But I never saw a unit using two attack animations.One on vehicles,one on infantry..But how could that be done?

NOD's Purifying Avatar uses napalm grenades vs infantry & structures and double arm-lasers vs vehicles & structures so yes, 2 weapon types is possible even if this is only through a specialisation upgrade, maybe the Shock Trooper can be bought "pre-upgraded" so to speak so it already exits the portal with both weapon types.

Oaks wrote: Shock trooper rather the equal of light,multipurpose infantry like Shadow squad or Snipers? Instead of heavy infantry? I would give them stealth when standing still, to correspond with stealth of both Shadows and Snipers

When i say "similar to the shadow team" i mean that it echoes certain aspects of its superior commando unit, so i'd also say its "similar to the Zone Trooper" rather than similar to the sniper. Considering the addition of "stealthed while still" to the new shock trooper i'd say it probably doesnt need this given its super fast movement speed and effectiveness vs both infantry and tanks, if it were stealthed while still people would be tempted to just blink everywhere and remain undetected. i think it would be unbalanced to have a stealth ability.

Oaks wrote:And for missing "Scrin C4 ability", I would give Scrin the second commando unit.Which would be Stalwart commando

I dont believe the Scrin need a C4 ability as the Mastermind can "control" structures and sell them (which essentially has the same function as C4 but also makes you money) regarding encountering enemy vehicles he can mind-control them and/or run really fast so i dont think he really needs an equivalent skill for disabling vehicles. I also dont believe that each faction needs 2 commandos, the GDI and NOD commandos need a little tweaking as discussed in their own threads here: Moddb.com and here: Moddb.com but as far as i can see the scrin equivalent is great at what he does and needs no improvements. Before anyone mentions "NOD has 2 commandos" i'd say CC is really more of a man-tank designed to be NODs answer to the Mark II rather than a true commando, and yes NOD also have cyborgs, but then they are the superior infantry faction, likewise Scrin have mastery over the skies because they are the superior air faction (broken Jump jet infantry aside) and GDI have by far the best tanks because they are the superior vehicle faction. To give secondary commandos to GDI and Scrin would mean NOD is at a distinct disadvantage and i'd consider it massively unbalancing. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

Oaks wrote:Manta: Fully agree. The" improvised EMP" is actualy already possesed by the proton beams of Annihalator. I think Devourers proton beam has it too. Its relatively unknown.Its supposedly usable even againts structures,but the Tripod uses it only when in small distance (the already disscused "third unused" Tripods tentacle) and its very inferior to GDI Shockwave grenades

Perhaps the Manta's EMP could be a beefed up version of the "latent EMP" of the proton beam (or perhaps more preferably a separate ability) to put the Manta on a similar footing to the shockwave grenades or GDI's Mobile EMP Cannon, as the EMP effect would be a result of it's beam, it would not be immobalised like the NOD Buggy. 
Another thought re: Manta (and possibly the new shock trooper too if he gets the similar beam), given that the beam is electricity perhaps it could "jump" from the targeted unit to any units/structures within a certain radius of the target (excluding air units) increasing its damage range (similar "jumping" is displayed by vanilla C&C's mothership beam so i know it's possible within the engine, i just dont know if its a good idea)

Edited by: M0nkfish

Jul 9 2013, 12:33pm Anchor

Well,buzzer combinations methods,thats rather already for Carnius,though the second one sounds easier. If the adjusted old Avatar Commandeer ability can be used only on infantry,in this case even only on one type of infantry,that is the question. It would still require complex scripting and probably new model animations for Buzzer that used the ability. But its a good idea.

Actualy,Scrin has Stasis chamber that gradualy with relatively small cooldown refills squad members one by one,when near of it.( Just like upgraded Pacifier, mobile squad refiller is the most advanced work I ever saw. A peak of Carnius's genius.)

Oh,thats a pity, so we will not have the Scrin commando with attack. I always like things not to be a manual hassle,but passive and done the easiest way. Thats why I complain, why Jumpjets can change into flight altitude right where they are with one click, in 1.4. riflemen also builds bunkers right where they are with one click, yet when changing to ground altitude you must point where they will land.The same applies to those amphibious stances ability. Why just not a passive C4 instead of manual hassle of taking over of Pacifier and Mastermind which has cooldown. The same for the ability of Mastermind to kill infantry squad instantely. In GDI campaign in penultimate mission, Scrin commando has nice attack animation there. Maybe the Shock trooper could use it.
The Mammoth II or upgraded Avatar(or using Commandeer ability),it was obvious that they have more than 1 weapon. But its not so obvious for Shock trooper.
Ok, Shock trooper should be more
 like Zone trooper(heavy infantry) with blink instead of jetpack.And with effective precision anti-infantry weapon.  xd

Manta EMP. Oh something like old chief of the Orcish horde, Thralls chain lightning ability? Gradual AoE attack.The reflecting attack.IDK,wouldnt that be OP and far too scifi? Hmm,maybe like Disruptors friendly fire attack that passes through units/structures?
But we could also assume that electricity is extremely powerfull againts air units. As Manta,Lightning spike attack is like compact ion storm strikes, would suddenly Manta gained instant kill AA?  xd  Probably no..
I wanted to write about the idea of faction distinction by that the Scrin would obtain most powerfull superweapon,for 10 000, 10 minutes cooldown,instead of somehow complained actual one. For the old Mothership (without the need to Mothership "be there") beam would suddenly strike from skies like Ion cannon. Structures would go white and boom. A true game ender.

GooberTrooper
GooberTrooper Nod Global Operations Commander
Jul 10 2013, 1:22am Anchor

On a completely unrelated note... I'm surprised my thread has lasted this long. To be honest, I completely forgot I made this thread. I've only checked on the thread to remove it from my updates... Needless to say, you guys have done a pretty good job at using this thread. Don't mind my interruption to this discussion and keep having at it!

--

"War is timeless, and so are we."~ Forgotten Tick Tank

Smallchange
Smallchange GDI, 101st Airborn Division, Firehawk Pilot
Jul 10 2013, 5:17pm Anchor
GooberTrooper wrote:On a completely unrelated note... I'm surprised my thread has lasted this long. To be honest, I completely forgot I made this thread. I've only checked on the thread to remove it from my updates... Needless to say, you guys have done a pretty good job at using this thread. Don't mind my interruption to this discussion and keep having at it!

Rofl.

And no... They don't need a game ender... unless it forces a draw by chance.
Because that's just ridiculus to even attempt, really... Who wants to wait 10 minutes and instant win if they have their SW guarded enough.
Scrin would no longer be an offense faction at all, just defend one thing for 10 minutes, you win. Simple.

No, Just. No.

Jul 11 2013, 12:14pm Anchor

Oh. How I could miss that? Seems I forget to say that it should not be game ender. And I wanted to ask if the game ending effect coud be reduced.
I were unsure were to put the topic.But you cant deny that disctinctive faction superweapon is bad idea :-)    I were inspired by CNC FALLOUT. How Australia faction has lower cooldown,price and smaller effect when compared to Soviet nuclear or NATO plasma expensive,longer cooldown game almost-enders.

I also dont know if and how common fans could create new threads. Feel to free to relocate entire Scrin balancing thread.  Anyway, back to the most urgent things that could be easily summarized as Nerf the Jumpjet,Buff the Manta.Balance the Scrin.Burn the heretic.Kill the mutant.Purge the unclean.Walk softly and carry big gun.
Its nice how Mutants and Scrin are complementary to themselves.Want tiberium? We have it. Want squad refiller? We have Stasis chamber.Want proper infantry and tanks? We have Mutants and Mastodons. Its cool ride when you have looted pitbulls,Humvees added to your Seekers,Devourers,Mantas,Razorbacks.

11.12.2013
Ok,long time passed, I still need to speak with many people and as the time of 1.52. or 1.6. slowly approaches, I could need to write something down.
I want to draw a final picture of Scrin balancing suggestion 3.0 or 4.0. which majority of fans would accept and mainly for Carnius to see it and find out his desicive and crucial standpoint and opinion. He must know that current Scrin arent on par and equal to their Human counterparts, doesnt he?

I were waiting looong time for this for people to see.
My looooong report includes things from personal messages to M0nfish.
The question on our lips:
How to make Scrin early and mid game smoother?
I and M0nkfish have lots of plans for Scrin balancing.xd
Like my Scrin balancing suggestions 3.0.
During my extenstive testing I found many things.

Manta and Devourer:
The first thing to do is that Manta must be buffed to be their proper MBT and moved to T1. Manta should get Heavy shield instead of Light one. Devourer moved to T2 that requires Radar.Its rather an equal of Nod basilisk.When upgraded with Particle accelerator,Devourer has bigger range than any defenses(Basilisk by default and is for 1000,Devourer for 1200)

Confirmed observations:
Devourer with charged tiberium is superior to Titan.
Seeker is superior to Scorpion.
Manta vs 2 Wolwerines kills each other.
Scrin infantry suffers heavily from Wolwerine/JJT.
Wolwerines unceasing fire and range should be lowered and should fire in bursts.JJts armor decreased.

Stormrider and Ravager gunship:
It seems that Stormrider has been redone into good
anti-vehicle/structure weapon,yet its ineffective,inaccurate againts infantry,despite having the same plasma weapon as Razorback/Ravager.That needs to be changed.But I can confirm that its still that best and fastest ASF in game.But must be cheaper than 1500. As well as Ravager than 1600.
Ravager and Leviathan could get AA.

Pacifier,Mastermind,Shock troopers,Stalwarts:
I would give Blinkpacks to Pacifier.And do him in squad of two.
Pacifier,Mastermind and Stalwarts can garrison.Why not Shock troopers?
Shock troopers are pretty inferior,in too big tier and requisition. And their AA so inferior.

Reaver,Harvester,Manta:
I am thinking on revamping the Reaver into APC,which from they can shoot out.Not for 1700 but rather under 1200. Yes, and Reaver can roll over infantry while being hover unit. Why Manta/Harvester cant do that? Maybe they should get something as old Dozer blades to activate it and being able to crush mines.

Corruptor:
Corruptor is too clumsy,slow,big and with pretty low health.
But Corruptors range,attack vs vehicles/structures should be nerfed.
I would like to revamp Tiberium addition upgrade so that it will be upgraded from Radar,will apply on Corruptor,Warp sphere,Refinery. Growth accelerator could get Razorback gun to defend itself and Harvester.
The armies of Contaminators created by either Corruptors or Leviathans tiberium attack should get vision radius. As well as Visceroids/Big Visceroids.
Contaminators are doing great job of being a better tanking first line duty role unit than Manta.

Sidenotes,Scrin bugs:
Are you using Gravity stabilizer as an early,cheap T3 defense,with its Ion storm? :D
Next is Drone ship which should not require Technology assembler but rather Stasis chamber.Drone ship should be able to heal itself in Ion storm as an air unit.
Scrin are not able to heal/repair captured stuff.There comes in M0nkfishs Integrator walker-

Integrator:
From Warp sphere-vehicle
Prereqsuition: Nerve center? Technology assembler? Gravity stabilizer? Stasis chamber? Signal transmitter?
Price: 1200
Medium supportive walker, Weaponless
Abilities:Heal in Tiberium
Deploy Ion storm (Ion storm generator)
Stealthed when standing still
Repairs units including human vehicles
Can stomp infantry
Role: Unit support, ambusher

M0nkfishs report about Integrator:

Integrator should definately be from the warp sphere as in order to repair human vehicles its going to have to be larger than them, i see no problem with it being able to heal most if not all scrin unit types, speed wise i was thinking about as fast as a raider buggy maybe even a little faster, i think we should dispense with repair drones as to me they do not fit with the re-imagined scrin in their new form, as he can only run over stuff or make ion storms i wouldnt consider him overpowered. in terms of actual legs that physically touching the ground i'd say maybe 6 max to reduce the complexity of animating the model, actual legs that integrator has maybe 12 - 14. in my imagination the Integrator has evolved many more legs than you see on any other scrin, this is an unusual approach given that most scrin hover and only the very largest have maybe 4 legs max. i'd argue that with its focus being on speed and manipulation as well as having a large brain capable of understanding things alien to it - A) it has no need for the blink when its legs are so fast and efficient. B) it doesnt have the brain space set aside for the teleportation ability given that this is reserved for knowledge of alien machines.

Sidenotes:
Mammoth mkII should be immune to Ravagers Terror drone.
Integrator would be able to cleanse Scrin vehicles of Terror drone since Scrin dont use repair drones no more.
I were thinking about giving old Corruptors and now Contaminators/big Visceroids or plasma discs attack to Manta.
Or ion strikes,proton beams to Ravager.
Or plasma discs/proton beams to Lightning spike.
Theres still lot of stuff and bugs I want to talk about,like crazy behavior of Buzzers/Buzzer hive. Some slight buffing,prices lowering,balancing.So far,this is the result of my worth more than a year studying and observation.
So the unit you are yearning for is proper Manta, pls dont go combinating Seeker with Razorback,Alucard xd
Manta not for 1400 but little bit lower,properly superior to Scorpion,yet still inferior to Titan.
And both Raider buggy with Razorback must stay albeit very slightly inferior to Wolwerine.

Edited by: Oaks

Dec 31 2013, 12:21pm Anchor

Ok guys things have been a little quiet on these threads for a while so allow me to give you a little New Years gift, this is an idea of mine which i have been discussing with Oaks for some time and i'd like more feedback if possible. See what you guys think:-

Scrin Integrator:

From Warp sphere (Tier 2? vehicle)

Possible Prerequistes: Nerve center? Technology assembler? Gravity stabilizer? Stasis chamber? Signal transmitter?

Price: 1200

Medium supportive walker, Weaponless, Fast Movement speed (similar to Raider Buggy speed)

Abilities: Heal in Tiberium, Deploy Ion storm (Ion storm generator), Stealthed when standing still, Repairs units including human vehicles.

Price and prerequisites are totally up for debate and i'd welcome your ideas, this unit is suggested as an alternative to reintroducing the repair drone as it doesn't fit with the Scrin canon or the current form of the scrin so this is an attempt to preserve the canon and have a way to repair units of non-scrin origin. Concept wise it works this way, it has the ability to instantly understand any non-scrin technology it sees and therefore knows how to fix it (using its many legs), it can repair scrin infantry units because it oozes radiation (nothing stopping it using its legs to fix tank-types either due to engine limitations) and it can heal air units and defend itself by creating an ion storm as an ability.  

Mechanics wise it would work in a similar way to the Phantom, repairing things within a certain radius of it, however there would be no visible repair drones as they dont fit with the scrin in their current TE form or with their story, it would seem as though the legs do the fixing. 

Edited by: M0nkfish

Dec 31 2013, 6:32pm Anchor

Scrin Integrator:
Attributes:

Build from: Warp sphere
Type: Medium Vehicle
Role: Supportive walker
Health: Scorpion-Manta
Damage: 0 (weaponless)
Movement speed: Raider buggy
Requirement: Stasis chamber
Price: 1250 credits
Build time: 20 seconds

Well, thats somehow unfair when its supposed to be somewhat equal of Phantom/Orca Rig which are both for 2000 and has low health/armor.
But no one wants second Reaver for 1700, whoms effective usage, is so limited.

Design:

Ahh,intimidating design of centipede/sepia, isnt it? xd
I were thinking if all those legs, heels and tentacles could like like "hands" of Scrin Foundry.
I would imagine ingame design to be like something between Scrin harvester with its needles and receptors and Corruptors bug-like feets.
The blue plasma- orb-chamber-thing which I think is supposed to be a pilot cockpit would have flickering lights like Reaver/Devourer/Harvester/Tripod.

Abilities and Upgrades:
It could be the only Scrin vehicle without light or heavy forcefield, so it can be stealthed just like stealth tank. It would be nice to increase Scrin stealth capabilities, the 1.6 Archive Scourge bomber will be rare. It would also be strange because casting Ion storm needs unit to be idle. So I dont know if Integrator would be visible or not when casting Ion storm, its a channel type ability, after all. Stealth tank/Shadow squads are also visible when attacking, but I dont remeber if they are visible doing those few seconds needed to plant the explosive charges.
Finally we can drop of the Ion storm upgrade from Manta and give it to Integrator. So Manta could finally be buffed with something proper,
like Heavy forcefields and Tiberium integration/Enhancement.
Then comes the Tiberium addition upgrade revamp/overhaul per my Scrin Balance suggestions (SBs3.0) , so it will gain tiberium aura.
The repairing of non-Scrin vehicles without repair drones will be tough quest for Carnius. Though, invisible repair drones attached to structure/vehicle were already seen in some mods.
It could be two modes unit, like Orca rig/Phantom. I dont know, Static mode would be probably in the end exactly like Phantom-both stealthed and it would release repair drones if game engine/Carniuss coding/scripting will prove to be not sufficient.
Moving mode would be atleast pretty fast and still giving off the tiberium aura.
And yeah, bear in mind that its role is a Support, so this unit is weaponless, if you dont count Ion storm and Tiberium aura as weapons.

Upgrades:
Ion storm generator
Tiberium addition

Abilities:
Stealthed
Create Ion storm (Ion storm generator)
Tiberium aura (Tiberium addition)      ==> heals Scrin ground units
Repair (repairs vehicles)
Combine with Buzzer
Heal in tiberium

To consider, optional stuff:
It could act as an APC (If not Reaver as per my SBs3.0) so Shock troopers/Disintegrators/Stalwarts can shoot out of it, because Carnius dont like KW Mechapede and its weapon segments system and Ravager gunship is insufficient and ineffective infantry transport system.
It could have something as Raider buggy EMP coil ability by default.
It could have passive or active stealth detection as Falcons Sensor pod or Orcas Pulse scan or Ravager gunships Terror drone.

Edited by: Oaks

Jan 1 2014, 3:41pm Anchor

I think leaving any Scrin support vehicle's repair as Scrin-specific would make more sense. Have it give the impression that, while the Scrin can certainly capture production structures and use mind control, their distain for "lower" technology causes them to see even Mammoth tanks as cannon fodder instead of heavy weapons. This also forces Scrin commanders to treat any such units with more care than they otherwise might, if they want to see these units survive more than one assault.

Regarding the Ion Storm ability, it definitely makes more sense on a repair vehicle than on the Manta. Perhaps, to bring this unit more in line with the Phantom/Rig, the Integrator's Storm can be buffed to a level that puts it between the Manta's Storm and the Storm Column. Give it this instead of stealth, since that's not really something the Scrin utilize, and then it has to deploy like the other support vehicles to reach maximum effectiveness. Though the case could be made that this would be a bit much, since the Tiberium aura repairs all units within its radius, instead of being limited to 3 at a time like its Nod & GDI counterparts.

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