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Poll: What do you think is the best solution? (58 votes)
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Nod epic unit. (Groups : Tiberium Essence Fans : Forum : Nod Ideas : Nod epic unit.) Locked
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Oct 24 2012, 4:16pm Anchor

I'm surprised I didn't come across this thread sooner.

I agree with those who think Nod should not have an epic unit that can go toe-to-toe with the Mammoth MKII and the Leviathan Mothership, in terms of size, strength, and FP. Instead, I believe Nod should rely on the use of more than one unit complimenting and supporting each other. For example, may not seem enough to some, but you could use the Avatar with the Propoganda Support upgrade with the CC, or some other combination.

-Redeemer- wrote:nod has very powerful standard units: the cobra, phantom, banshee, avatar with new upgrades, CC. Each unit can't reach that much like an epic unit, but combined they are even stronger.

Well said, exactly ;) This is why I feel Nod can do without a unit more epic than the current CC (plus, it isn't fitting for Nod to have many large units, nothing else bigger than the Avatar for sure).

I do favor the idea of beefing the CC just a little more, though. In doing this, I really do like the idea if the CC "goes out with a bang" when he dies, that'd be sweet! In addition, maybe give him just a tiny bit extra life, and with that extra life, when he gets down to that low (to the point when he would have died prior to the added/edited HP), he breaks down and is reanimated to have lost his legs and then needs to crawl (still controllable), in homage to TS. I think someone else in another thread posted this idea too. Then when he actually does die, a second or two later he has a tiberium-based explosion that'd harm any nearby enemy units (In style with the Predator, the movie, but not at all that big and OP :D ).

Also, I do like playmsbk's idea of giving the CC something that'd work like his said "riot generator", if it only lasted for a few seconds (with a balanced cool down), or something at least similar to the Redeemer's Rage ability in KW (obviously this ability shouldn't affect enemy epic units or commandos - debatable if it should affect air units or not). I think this will be much better instead of the cloak ability too. Even if it is only activated when he's standing still, personally, I wasn't fond of him having the cloaking ability - to me it'd be like adding jumpjet ability to Nod's female commando, something about it, it doesn't feel right for this unit). It is just fine to me and fitting that the female commando has her stealth, though.

FortressMaximus wrote:I think the most important thing when a new unit is added is a side valutation, in order to mantain each side's distinctive feature. The second point is: "What this side really needs to be complete and fairly balanced? How can this unit works with other units in the arsenal?" After these considerations everyone can understand what kind of unit is needed for each side.

Very well said! This is important to consider when thinking of adding new units or editing pre-existing units.

Edited by: .Mac.

Oct 25 2012, 10:06am Anchor

RE: CC yes he should explode tiberium on death but if he is to crawl when near death then ordinary cyborgs should too. He SHOULD keep the cloak upgrade ability as it is but it should be EXPENSIVE (i see no reason why nod would not do this to their most elite unit). Please no R.A.G.E. generator in TE, although it is the best feature of the Redeemer in KW it really isn't plausable technology (theres no way it could ever actually work) instead please consider replacing his flamethrower with Hallucinogenic Grenade launcher, NOD already has this technology and it makes a lot more sense in terms of whats actually possible.

GoldenArbiter
GoldenArbiter Proud servant of Kane
Oct 25 2012, 10:48am Anchor
M0nkfish wrote:RE: CC yes he should explode tiberium on death but if he is to crawl when near death then ordinary cyborgs should too. He SHOULD keep the cloak upgrade ability as it is but it should be EXPENSIVE (i see no reason why nod would not do this to their most elite unit). Please no R.A.G.E. generator in TE, although it is the best feature of the Redeemer in KW it really isn't plausable technology (theres no way it could ever actually work) instead please consider replacing his flamethrower with Hallucinogenic Grenade launcher, NOD already has this technology and it makes a lot more sense in terms of whats actually possible.

Yes to cloak, because I like cloak, and no to getting rid of flame thrower. Fire is the iconic weapon of Nod, and therefore, it pretty much needs to be mounted on the CC.
As for the plausibility of the rage generator thing: A long burst of white noise. If you increase the waveform of the sound, and play it at a high enough decibel for a long enough time, people do break down. Its not especially fast, can take a few minutes, but it does happen. At that point, in order to make the pain stop from probably ruptured eardrums, people just go insane. If the noise keeps going, you can even go blind do to the vibrations in the air, not to mention bleeding from your pores...

--

"Before enlightenment: Chop wood, fetch water. After enlightenment: Chop wood, fetch water." -zen proverb

Oct 25 2012, 11:07am Anchor
GoldenArbiter wrote:
Yes to cloak, because I like cloak, and no to getting rid of flame thrower. Fire is the iconic weapon of Nod, and therefore, it pretty much needs to be mounted on the CC.
As for the plausibility of the rage generator thing: A long burst of white noise. If you increase the waveform of the sound, and play it at a high enough decibel for a long enough time, people do break down. Its not especially fast, can take a few minutes, but it does happen. At that point, in order to make the pain stop from probably ruptured eardrums, people just go insane. If the noise keeps going, you can even go blind do to the vibrations in the air, not to mention bleeding from your pores...

Yes the white noise would cause all these affects but you'd be too incapacitated to shoot anything or even move. Also i dont really want to see the flame thrower go just thought their might be too many weapons on one arm, but yes keep the flamethrower and give him shoulder mounted (longer range) hallucination grenades. R.A.G.E. Generator is just impossible. But if you dont feel grenades are appropriate perhaps some kind of fear aura around him that suppresses rate of fire for vehicles and makes infantry flee. After all he's pretty damn scary.

playmsbk
playmsbk 21st Special Nod Division
Oct 25 2012, 12:29pm Anchor

The Rage Generator would make the CC more of a supportive epic, like it should be, since it isn't suited to taking down lots pf enemies toe to toe like the rest epics. Also, as GoldenArbiter said, it is possible in theory but not yet achieved, like most of the technology featured in C&C. I also support the fear aura, or at least a buff aura for allied units like with the Propaganda Avatar.

--

FIGHT FOR THE BROTHERHOOD, DIE FOR KANE!

Oct 25 2012, 5:56pm Anchor

Fear aura would be a more realistic alternative to the to the R.A.G.E. (dont get me wrong it's affects are cool, but such a phenomenon would only be possible through mass hypnosis. The kind of thing GoldenArbiter suggests would be painful and incapacitating it's used for riot suppression not riot generation.) I'm sorry if i sound like an arse and i know that technology moves on very fast but i'd rather the tech (for the human sides at least) has some grain of truth to it.

GoldenArbiter
GoldenArbiter Proud servant of Kane
Oct 25 2012, 11:38pm Anchor
M0nkfish wrote:Fear aura would be a more realistic alternative to the to the R.A.G.E. (dont get me wrong it's affects are cool, but such a phenomenon would only be possible through mass hypnosis. The kind of thing GoldenArbiter suggests would be painful and incapacitating it's used for riot suppression not riot generation.) I'm sorry if i sound like an arse and i know that technology moves on very fast but i'd rather the tech (for the human sides at least) has some grain of truth to it.

Yah, no, you're right.
Hmmm... what would cause people to turn on their friends.....

--

"Before enlightenment: Chop wood, fetch water. After enlightenment: Chop wood, fetch water." -zen proverb

Oct 26 2012, 4:23am Anchor

Regarding the Stealth for CC: I guess what I was thinking was it could be possible to give the CC something a bit more unique and his own; something equally if not more intimidating than him having stealth. If he has a BFG and another strong ability (maybe another med strength ability, so 2 abilities total, not including flame thrower) he'd care less about having stealth, in fact, he'd want the enemy to see him and tremble 8) Besides, to me, stealth should be reserved for the more sneaky/tactical and lighter duty units, like female commando, stealth tank, cobra, Nightwing, etc. The CC on the other hand is a hulky, BA brute who most often marches out to the lines (possibly with some help too) and decimates armies - he doesn't need to be sneaky imho :) If he does keep stealth, though, I agree giving it a cost would be good, otherwise he my as well have it already equipped (maybe Carnius was just testing this ability?). I am just hoping for something a little more original that could replace it, is all, and more fitting to his fighting style :)

The flame thrower should definitely stay - it's too cool to get rid of ;)

As for the Rage Generator, I suppose you're right M0nkfish it's true it may not actually be possible now, but I don't see why something similar to that caliber couldn't be plausible 30yrs from now, just like some other future tech featured in the game :) That's the beauty of Sci-fi, certain things actually become possible and work! Lol :D Within reason and enough logic, of course :D Nothing too far-fetched, so I agree, it should have "some grain of truth to it" (It's permissible that Scrin breaks a lot of our rules and logic though... lucky ETs :P ) So maybe it is a bit on the far-fetched side, and so it's okay with me that we do away with the Rage idea then, at least for GDI and Nod.

So what if instead, we give the CC a wave emitter or a projectile (preferred) that would only affect other cybernetic beings and/or vehicles, like a temporary sort of virus? This virus can either hurt the enemy unit(s) or not (I think it'd be better if it did), but definitely disarm the enemy for a bit, so they are unable to shoot (for around 5 -10secs, you guys decide - the impact radius of "the virus" is dependent on the length of time the unit will be infected, which in turn is dependent on the ability's cool-down). It's almost similar to the hallucinogenic grenade ability but for vehicles, and instead of the units firing on each other, they will be unable to fire for a period of time (and possibly damaged). I don't think I want the affected unit to be immobile either, because I don't want this ability to be too similar to an EMP. This ability should be unique so it'll be the CC's own. What do you guys think on this one?

Otherwise, I really do like the other ideas I've read that you guys are brainstorming. Even if the upgraded Militia already have this ability with their Confessors, I can go for the upgraded hallucinogenic grenade launcher from his shoulder idea, M0nkfish - it's a good tech! :thumbup: Or your White Noise idea, GoldenArbiter, as an alternative to the KW version of Rage! But what I especially like is the unique "fear aura" ability that will hinder the enemy in some way! This is very fitting for the CC, simply because "They will know fear" :D

As for the shot down legs, I would like it too if the normal cyborgs had this too. I was thinking, just in case for some reason it'd be difficult to code, Carnius should put effort into doing this for the CC first. It'll be his own way of saying, "I'm not through yet, flesh bags!" :D

Oct 26 2012, 6:16pm Anchor

Very interesting idea to have a virus, but as the CC is so destructive i can see it having limited applications against tanks etc. Perhaps it could be his only (and very temporary) defense against air units, say its fired straight up in a radius affecting 1 hostile air unit for say 5 seconds locking up its weapons and causing slow light damage akin to tiberium sickness for infantry only less severe for the duration of its affects. In addition the virus is communicable (if codable) to any other nearby air units (hostile or otherwise) causing the same affects. moderate cool off time and cost to use this ability (say 500 - 1000). Maybe this could replace the overcharge shot as this can be used as a cheat to target aircraft already but maybe not, wouldnt want to under/overpower him.(if it's not codable to have it be contagious then remove the cost and reduce the cool off time)

We do run the risk of giving him too many abilities here so maybe we should cherry-pick the best ones, remember we have 4 (activatable) abilities max. Heres a summary of what we have come up with so far:

Tiberium Explosion - on death
Stealth Upgrade (as Stealth Tank) [cost 2500 - 3000] - Activatable
Stealth (as Blackhand Commando) - when still
Fear Aura (slows rate of vehicle fire, causes infantry to flee) - Constant
Overcharge Shot - Activatable
Virus (for Tanks/Cyborgs - slows movement?, locks up weapons for 5 - 10 sec, slow health drain) - Activatable
Virus (for Aircraft - slows movement, locks up weapons for 5 sec, contagious?, slow low damage health drain) [cost 500 - 1000] - Activatable
White Noise Blast (as R.A.G.E. Generator in KW) - Activatable
Hallucination Grenade Launcher - Activatable

forgive me if i've missed anyones ideas off the list, heres my personal choice for the CC from the above list:
Tiberium Explosion
Stealth Upgrade
Fear Aura
Virus (aircraft)
Overcharge [ONLY IF THE GLITCH CAN BE REMOVED, so it no-longer damages aircraft at all when fired underneath them]
(if not overcharge then gren launcher)

GoldenArbiter
GoldenArbiter Proud servant of Kane
Oct 27 2012, 1:31am Anchor

Hmmm, the overcharge glitch only functions when you target aircraft though...

I think if I had to choose, it would be
Tib explosion on death OR Overcharge,
stealth upgrade for 2500 (wasnt that what it was supposed to cost?)
and the fear aura. Although, I think that rather than make infantry run away, it should just suppress them.

--

"Before enlightenment: Chop wood, fetch water. After enlightenment: Chop wood, fetch water." -zen proverb

Oct 27 2012, 6:28am Anchor

For Fear Aura, were you guys thinking it'd affect just infantry (non-vehicles) or all enemy units in the radius? I was assuming the latter. And I do like that it'd suppress the enemy in some way rather than them scattering/running away. Just so long as radius isn't too big, maybe no larger than the size of the Avatar's Propaganda radius?

For Virus of vehicles/cyborgs, I really like the idea of slowed movement, health draining, and unable to fire for the duration of unit(s) being affected - that all sounds great together and a unique CC ability too :D Great idea M0nkfish on slowed movement and health draining! To get the cool shoulder-mounted launcher idea in, this weapon upgrade could show him having this for shooting the virus projectile at his target(s) :thumbup: We could name this upgrade ability Virus, Overload or something along these lines? I wouldn't want any kind of anti-air for CC, only because he is an excellent vehicle/structure killer and efficient enough at taking out infantry, so air should be his weakness - so couple him with some Cyborg Reapers and you're set ;)

I actually have 3 combination I would like to see and/or be tested 8)

1st choice I'd greatly like to see:
- shot off legs just before death + tib explosion on death
- Fear Aura - (replaces stealth ability)
- Virus/Overload for anti-vehicles/cyborgs (replaces Overcharge - then, also return the original firing sound effect for primary gun, like in 1.4 and TS)
- Flame Thrower

2nd choice:
- shot off legs just before death + tib explosion on death
- Fear Aura (replaces stealth ability)
- Overcharge
- Flame Thrower

3rd choice:
I'm thinking that if most people still agree that the CC should still have the stealth ability like it does now (but with a cost to upgrade), I'll be curious and maybe okay with that as an additional ability to my 1st choice, as long as it doesn't end up being too much and OP all together :)

Edited by: .Mac.

Oct 27 2012, 10:41am Anchor

I can see what you're saying about Virus for Aircraft but it wouldnt really be an anti-air measure, it's just intended to buy him a little time if he's pinned down, maybe it shouldnt do any direct damage at all was thinking it could be contagious in the same way as the PK Mothership's beam was with a little radius from each unit passing it on. Perhaps he shouldn't be able to counter air in any way though. The vehicle virus could be contagious in the same manner (kinda like a spark jumping from vehicle to vehicle infecting them) but maybe this would be OP or hard to code for.

Fear aura i'm happy with Suppression, as long as its a unique affect no other unit can achieve, just thought it would be cooler if it affected vehicle and infantry in different ways (i.e. if you're in a tank you feel slightly safer) but perhaps again this is too hard to code for - was thinking that this aura could also give morale boost as avatar but slightly more effective and only applying to other cyborgs, is this OP?

Oct 27 2012, 3:16pm Anchor
M0nkfish wrote:Perhaps he shouldn't be able to counter air in any way though.

I think so too, because he can readily get this aid from elsewhere. Plus I favor the idea of leaving it so air units are still his "kryptonite", especially if he might be beefed up a bit more. I feel the Mammoth Mk II can get away with having something against everything, only because he is considered more epic, as he should be ;)

M0nkfish wrote:The vehicle virus could be contagious in the same manner (kinda like a spark jumping from vehicle to vehicle infecting them) but maybe this would be OP or hard to code for.

If it were possible to code, it would be an awesome touch for a weapon to spread from unit to unit in this way :thumbup: But probably best not for the CC‘s Virus imho, because I'm afraid it would be too much, especially since it already has a few other symptoms going for it already that I'd like to see (slowed movement, health draining, + suppressed firing). BUT, I can definitely see it working great as a tiberium-based weapon for a Scrin unit, especially on a weapon we feel could use beefing up anyway, or an added weapon ability to a deserving Scrin unit(s)? And also, only if it were possible to not let it spread indefinitely and/or code it so it'd completely end in a matter of seconds, otherwise it'd run the risk of being OP very quickly... but I just accidently got ourselves into a different topic here :D

M0nkfish wrote:Fear aura i'm happy with Suppression, as long as its a unique affect no other unit can achieve, just thought it would be cooler if it affected vehicle and infantry in different ways (i.e. if you're in a tank you feel slightly safer) but perhaps again this is too hard to code for - was thinking that this aura could also give morale boost as avatar but slightly more effective and only applying to other cyborgs, is this OP?

I agree it should be a unique effect. Carnius could take note on Diablo II for some creative effects from the Paladin :D (make it his own though, so no one gets in trouble ;) ). I think infantry and vehicles should be affected equally, even if what you say may be more realistic :) And if it is possible, it sounds very difficult to code, but I'm not positive.

GoldenArbiter
GoldenArbiter Proud servant of Kane
Oct 27 2012, 9:16pm Anchor

Actually, a cyborg command module (tm) would probably be a great way to go about this. Double powered avatar aura, for cyborgs only :)

--

"Before enlightenment: Chop wood, fetch water. After enlightenment: Chop wood, fetch water." -zen proverb

Oct 28 2012, 7:05am Anchor

might be technically difficult in terms of coding and we might have to remove any boost they get from the nod propaganda for balance which again might be difficult but i'm hoping its possible - in addition to the suppression of fire caused by the fear effect of course.

or perhaps more preferably you could have a wave form burst in the style of the R.A.G.E. that enhances cyborg performance (rate of fire, maybe movement speed but maybe not) of any allied cyborgs in the area for a brief period of time say 15sec, with a long cooldown time, seperate ability from the fear aura, call it something like Software Optimisation whereby the CC beams a temporary patch to others within the wave. Maybe i'm coming up with too many cyborg ideas :S

on a slightly related note someone came up with the idea of Limpet Drones for Nod a while ago, to replace the fanatic (cant remember who posted this, sorry) great idea, was thinking though perhaps APCs should keep normal mines and Limpet Drones could only be Laid by the Cyborg Reaper, like an egg (cost 500 - 600 per drone, small to moderate warm-up & cool-down times for drone production) but also capable of their own movement. probably the wrong place to post this idea so i expect to get my ass kicked

Edited by: M0nkfish

Oct 28 2012, 4:10pm Anchor

In addition to the hindered enemy units with the Fear Aura, I could go for it also enhancing friendly cyborgs that are within the radius :thumbup: That would be very cool, but also sounds like it'd be a pain if it is possible to code it that way. Basically, an ability that would in some way enhance (only) cyborgs from the CC - it'd be very fitting. If we were to combine abilities in this way, it sounds like it wouldn't be fitting if we called it Fear, if enemy units are afraid of it but friendly cyborgs are influenced by it - not sure what though.

I had in mind that a smaller version of the Rage effect could appear after the projectile of the Virus makes impact on the enemy unit(s). It really is a cool effect, which is mostly why I was originally interested in bringing in the Rage ability ;)

Speaking of enhancing cyborgs, just quickly, I wouldn't mind if there was a simple upgrade at the Secret Shrine, Tech Lab, or somewhere, that'd boost the speed of the Reapers (possibly for the regular cyborgs too, so they can actually run instead of fast walk). I feel the Reapers were faster in TS, but maybe that's just me.

I've read somewhere on the in TE main page a while back where people were thinking of replacing the Fanatics and bringing in suicidal Drones instead. So I kinda built off of that idea, and I don't know if you've read mine or not, M0nkfish, but I've posted a descriptive way of getting Limpets to replace Fanatics in another thread here Moddb.com . I'd post it here, but it is a solid paragraph and it might be taking it too far from this topic -_- Just scroll through the long list and soon you'll see it; you're welcome to read the other things too! :D

M0nkfish wrote:probably the wrong place to post this idea so i expect to get my ass kicked

No worries, I just did it twice in this post :)

Now I should at least end this post that's back on topic, but I don't know what else to say. I've already given my 2 cents (probably more like quarters, lol) about my ideas of what I'd like for the CC ;) Now it's up to Carnius to take a read and agree/disagree of our ideas. What ever he decides I'll be happy with it :)

Edited by: .Mac.

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