All of the thanks to goes to Carnius for a great mod, I am thankful that you are kind enough to make this for me and the rest of the CNC community, without caring about any kind of pay or reimbersment. I and, I believe the rest of the CNC community really just want to say, THANKS CARNIUS! and thank you for coming to TEF.

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Neutral key structure (Groups : Tiberium Essence Fans : Forum : General Tiberium Essence Ideas : Neutral key structure) Locked
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Starfox100
Starfox100 "Inferno Phoenix" field Commander
Oct 18 2012, 2:45pm Anchor

Hello everyone,
My brother came up last week with a idea to me.

Neutral key structures right now are like we know for example Spikes, silos and subway tunnels.
But this was a total new idea to me. What about a neutral carrier. Just like with the subway tunnels. there is a Main structure hub if you take over that structure then you control all subways.

Only with this you take control over a carrier (a battleship or a really strong structure just what suits best)

If you got control then you'll get 2 till 4 planes that you can send out to the enemy location WITH that they have to go back to refill.
If they got killed then you'll get fresh new fighters back after 2 or 3 minutes. just like in generals that you could get free units.
(and if you got the money you can buy them back for a low price)

It can also be a battleship with long range artillery. (or Long range AA capabilities)

These structures are easy to take. but if the control hub is down. you can't take control anymore and then the Structure is a hard target to take out (like that carrier idea. (2 sea to ground missile launchers 4 AA batteries). (battleship would be like 4 artillery cannons and 2 AA weapons)

you know what, I'll leave the weapon load-outs to you. Is this a nice idea? for me it was pretty interesting. (does not have to be a ship, but it suits best)

It was drawn to me, but i made it hopefully a bit more visible with these images.
- IMAGE 1: Engineer stand next to the hub.
- IMAGE 2: Hub is taken over just like the carrier and battleship
- IMAGE 3: 2 planes are on deck of the carrier.

(right-click and watch image if its to small)

Edited by: Starfox100

GoldenArbiter
GoldenArbiter Proud servant of Kane
Oct 19 2012, 12:05pm Anchor

I like it.

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"Before enlightenment: Chop wood, fetch water. After enlightenment: Chop wood, fetch water." -zen proverb

Oct 19 2012, 4:06pm Anchor

Hey I am liking this idea too. I read before in another post where people were discussing the possibilities of bringing in buildable naval units to this game, which I would be in interested in. But I am am also thinking it wouldn't be worth the trouble because I think the pathfinding and navigation through small and shallow waters will mostly be difficult (unless we had really small battleships and aircraft carriers, but that'd look silly). Plus, not very many maps have large amounts of water. So, I can definitely see this as the solution for us having naval units, where they are placed at strategic area(s) in certain maps that have sufficient water, and they are capturable. Like you said, I think this idea can also be used for other things besides ships too :)

Not meaning to get away from original topic, but it's related, I would really like to see capturable neutral hospitals again ;)

Oct 19 2012, 6:15pm Anchor

Will capturing those buildings in maps without boats in water cause the game to crash?

Smallchange
Smallchange GDI, 101st Airborn Division, Firehawk Pilot
Oct 19 2012, 7:20pm Anchor
Valherran wrote:Will capturing those buildings in maps without boats in water cause the game to crash?

It wouldn't be the actual hub, it's just without anything made for it... That was the best thing he could find for an example.

Starfox100
Starfox100 "Inferno Phoenix" field Commander
Oct 20 2012, 5:49am Anchor
Valherran wrote:Will capturing those buildings in maps without boats in water cause the game to crash?

If you want to do this then you need the same script as with the subways. If you take over the hub while no other exits are in the map, the game does not crash. this need to be added by the modmaker.
and indeed like Smallchange said these pictures are just for a example.
I can't make anything like this for multi-player since that EA blockade kicks in and sees it as a cheat now. so it needs to be modded in. (like the tunnel exits functioning now without scripts)

it does not have to be ships. it can also be large structures. (that can be placed in water also)

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User Posted Image
May the fox be with you...

Oct 21 2012, 7:09pm Anchor

Like the idea but i can see it possibly being OP/unbalancing. Personally i'd much prefer full naval battles as has been discussed recently. This could lead to a variety of interesting new units being produced for all sides and would make for new innovations for TE, taking it beyond the scope of TS or FS.

@.Mac. i second your feeling about capturable Hospitals that would be sweet!

RE: most maps not being suitable for naval units, packs of maps could be produced for this very purpose and linked into the forum for easy access, might lead to some new inspirations for map designers!

Been giving this concept some thought and have come up with my own variation of a neutral capturable structure, see what you guys think:
Old offshore oil-rig structure has been captured by mutants, once under a players control it acts like a tiberium spike giving +15 instead of the normal +10 (using the rigs old drilling mechanism to mine tiberium directly from the sea floor) and has Moderate range AA capabilities (flak cannon). In addition it can use its airfield/helipad to produce the following units, all with the standard mutant build queue restrictions:

Forgotten Chinook - this heavily armoured transport helicopter is a relic from the previous tiberium war but has been given extra armour, these units are so large they can transport any vehicle up to heavy size to anywhere on the map allows for infantry units to be perminantly garrisoned inside with the ability to fire out. = Cost 1500

Viper - this vehicle is constructed from salvage and scrap from downed aircraft combining elements of the Orca and Harpy, using the Orca's VTOL engines and the Harpy's armaments and cockpit (this is essentially bringing back the un-upgraded venom with no signature generator, even the old model would do - perhaps this will appease those who want to see the Harpy be annoyingly VTOL) this unit is intended to provide light AA and anti-infantry support. = Cost 650

Seeder - this Vehicle is able to spread tiberium to support mutants in the battlefield, functioning like Nod's seed tiberium support power except seeding blue tiberium and being reusable (model for this one would be the old Ox Transport re-purposed or a non stealthed version of the large nod bombers that drop the mines). weaponless but with heavy armour. = Cost 1200

i know this is slightly different to what was originally suggested and i know a lot of people feel that as a support faction the mutants shouldn't have air units but perhaps this could be interesting, i invite your opinions...

Edited by: M0nkfish

Starfox100
Starfox100 "Inferno Phoenix" field Commander
Oct 22 2012, 10:25am Anchor

The idea is good, but i do search for a building that gives a free unit at a certain amount of time. (like a generals idea, The rest of your idea is good :) )

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User Posted Image
May the fox be with you...

Oct 22 2012, 11:52am Anchor

Perhaps then the Viper can be removed from the production menu and given freely in the way you describe in you first post (max 4 at any one time, and perhaps only give 1 initially) i know they dont have to return and reload but maybe you could remove the option to buy back lost ones and just wait for them to respawn. Maybe give them less health than the Venom had.

On a slightly related note this would be even cooler if the signature generator on the Harpy was redone to create illusory doubles on the map aswell as the radar screen. This would make the Harpy much more capable than the Viper and differentiate between the two so they aren't the same unit with a different sprite.

Edited by: M0nkfish

Starfox100
Starfox100 "Inferno Phoenix" field Commander
Oct 22 2012, 4:13pm Anchor

:thumbup: got my vote

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May the fox be with you...

Mar 18 2013, 7:52pm Anchor

I'd like to revisit this topic again.

Carnius wrote:I must admit that im really fond of idea to see naval warfare in TE, i will explore this possibility in future.

Carnius is interested in the idea of naval units and I'm sure many of us are too, so here's my idea for how I think it could work well for TE - I'm mixing ideas between Starfox's capturing a neutral building idea, the function of Carnius' Tacitus Archive structure, and inspiration from watching this vid for Rise of the Reds mod for Generals Youtube.com

To build the naval units, I think it would work very well to just simply have a neutral tech structure that's called "Naval Yard", "Naval HQ", or the like, that is/are already placed by map-makers in the map partly on top of water and also partly on land (so naval units can exit it and also so engineers can capture it, unless there's a better method). Just like with the Tacitus Archive, depending which faction you are, certain naval units will be exclusive/available for you. I think this idea may work very well, as opposed to having a "Naval Yard" or something in the building queue, because not all maps will have available water for this structure, so basically it'd be wasted space. Also, for some reason I can imagine it being a real pain/issue trying to place this structure on the water or land (or partly both) for this game's engine. So at the moment, it's probably easiest for it be as a neutral structure that allows building supplement naval units, similar to the Tacitus Archive, and let the map builders decide when it's necessary to have naval units in their map (or not) via worldbuilder.

As for the units, here are some (rough draft) ideas:
GDI: I'd like to see...
- a destroyer that can hammer naval units or things on land, with some anti-air too (could use EA's "GDIBattleship", but overall scaled smaller and a lot of design tweaking)
- an aircraft carrier naval unit that'd spawn 2-4 super-sonic air units (think of the Allied naval aircraft carrier in RA2), or it could act just like an Airfield in sea and can build/support 2-4 air units, either Orca Fighter/Bomber/Firehawk (could use EA's "GDICarrier", but overall scaled smaller with the front-end shortened a lot and possibly some other design tweaking)
- a hovercraft as a transport (could use EA's "GDIHovercraft", with possibly some design tweaking).

Nod: I'd like to see...
- the Nod version and future version of the Sea Shadow
En.wikipedia.org pretty much it'd be
the naval version of the stealth tank with similar attack capabilities.
- another kind of destroyer unit that's good against vehicles (could use EA's "NOD_Battleship", but overall scaled down smaller with some design tweaking)
- another type of naval transport.

Scrin: possibly...
- some sort of squid/floater-like unit (inspired by M0nkfish)
- a squad of smallish sea units that "eat" through the hulls of other naval units
- some sort of alien naval transport that might have weapons.

I may edit this post later when I get more specific/detailed ideas, but what do you guys think of this??

Edited by: .Mac.

Mar 19 2013, 8:20am Anchor

some good ideas there but id like to see a full complment of naval units from the neutral shipyard for each side (kind of like an aquatic war factory) perhaps some kind of AA stealth speedboat for nod that can aso lay stealth mines (based on those closed canopy speedboats used for drag racing), GDI & NOD hovercrafts of various flavours (maybe a motarlauncher for GDI one) maybe some kind of scrin sea-serpent/dragon would be sweet.

I'd still like to see a neutral mutant oil rig as stated before (maybe it could produce some boats too)

Mar 20 2013, 6:02pm Anchor
M0nkfish wrote:some good ideas there but id like to see a full complment of naval units from the neutral shipyard for each side (kind of like an aquatic war factory

How many naval units were you thinking? I don't think a lot is needed, really. I do think 3-4 naval units per faction will be adequate at this neutral shipyard (at least 1-2 unique assault units and at least 1 support unit, and so depending on their weaponry/abilities, 3-4 [or maybe even just 2] naval units can be all that is needed to get the job done for a particular faction - with possibly building caps for certain naval units too). Ultimately it's up to him, but 3-4 is at least a reasonable goal for Carnius :) Besides, I also like the idea of a happy medium in TE that respects the Tiberian lore (where there weren't any naval units to build) and also the Red Alert lore (where there has always been naval units to build), therefore allowing just enough naval units in TE at this tech structure. Also keep in mind these particular units should still only be supplemental to your primary arsenal.

Starfox100
Starfox100 "Inferno Phoenix" field Commander
Mar 21 2013, 9:39am Anchor

I not want to disturb your thoughts. but in the whole C&C Tiberium series we never had control over a ship. with that i also say that adding ships to the game would give it another perspective. but also another type of game it becomes. (at least, if you start adding more)

i added this post because of to add some kind of building that gives an advance into the game play. it can be a ship or a oil rig, with just a few extra units (in my mind planes from a helipad, it CAN be just 1 or 2 ships) and a lot of defense so you can't lose it quickly. (unless the rig/ship hub gets taken over)

Edited by: Starfox100

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User Posted Image
May the fox be with you...

Mar 21 2013, 1:33pm Anchor
Starfox100 wrote:I not want to disturb your thoughts. but in the whole C&C Tiberium series we never had control over a ship. with that i also say that adding ships to the game would give it another perspective. but also another type of game it becomes. (at least, if you start adding more)

You're absolutely right Starfox :D In my last post I mentioned that too. It wouldn't fit the lore of the tiberium series to have a lot of naval units (ships/boats) that can be built, let alone any; if this were the Red Alert universe (where that series always had naval units), certainly a full complement of naval units would be suitable.

With that said, some traditions can always be broken for the better (purchasable upgrades and garrisoning in buildings are some good examples) and that's why I could see it working to actually have some buildable and movable naval units in the tiberium series, with TE. I presume they'd mainly be in Blue Zones and some Yellow Zones. It wouldn't need to be a lot of naval units in TE; no more than 3 per faction can still be adequate, or however many Carnius feels is right :) These naval units wouldn't normally be in your building queue either, but rather it must be obtained via a tech structure, which itself wouldn't always be in maps. So it's essentially still respecting the original lore of the tiberium series that you and I care about (where you couldn't build naval units), it'd be just on occasion when you can build naval units - just like you couldn't build and control the Kodiak or Montauk before, but now on occasion you will be able to build the new ones from the Tacitus Archive ;)

Personally, I would welcome this idea and would really enjoy seeing some moveable naval ships, and it sounds like Carnius is interested in attempting it too. If he is unable to achieve this though, if it's too buggy or something, then how you've suggested it would be a great alternative :thumbup:

Mar 27 2013, 9:49pm Anchor
.Mac. wrote:
M0nkfish wrote:some good ideas there but id like to see a full complment of naval units from the neutral shipyard for each side (kind of like an aquatic war factory

How many naval units were you thinking? I don't think a lot is needed, really.



I think we're on the same page here - i dont think very many types of unit would be needed for each side either; by "full complement of naval units" i simply mean that it would be possible for each side to have balanced combat using only naval units, so the full breadth of roles should be filled by the available units. I'm sorry if i was unclear previously.

I do like a lot of Mac's ideas for the various factions particularly the GDI ones :) I've been giving further thought to the idea of naval units in general and i've had a few more ideas of what i think would be interesting for each side:

GDI Units:
Destroyer Flagship - Large Vessel, slow, capable of pummeling both land and sea Targets with it's multiple long range artillery cannons, only one may be built at any one time

Aircraft Carrier - Large Vessel, weaponless, functions as a mobile airfield and repairs nearby allied aircraft, only one may be built at any one time

Battleship - Medium Vessel, excels at ship-to-ship combat armed with deadly torpedoes, has moderate AA capabilities, cant attack land targets

Scout Ship - Small Vessel, fast and has excellent AA capabilities, detects stealth, can also be used as an effective counter-measure against land based infantry or sea-mines.

Hovercraft - Small Vessel, based on the GDI "hovertank" chassis, enables 1 unit or squad to garrison inside and fire out, capable of moving on water or inland

NOD Units:
Submarine - Large Vessel, slow, detects stealth, can submerge to avoid detection, can attack sea or land targets with its single artillery cannon uses tiberium based shell identical to the spectre's, armed with deadly torpedoes for ship-to-ship combat, must surface to fire weaponry, can be detected by anti-stealth measures when submerged, vulnerable to tentacle rustfish and torpedo when submerged, only one may be built at any one time.

Ghost-ship - Medium Vessel, stealthed unless attacking, similar to the stealth-tank in all respects, can attack land, sea, or air targets within its range, fragile. Based on the look of the "Sea Shadow".

Destroyer - Medium Vessel, much smaller than its GDI counterpart this ship uses its (laser?) cannons to attack both sea and land vehicles, can lay stealthed sea-mines.

Speedboat - Small Vessel, very fast, stealthed unless attacking, uses its laser to attack both air units and ground based infantry, can generate EMP pulse (as buggy) to temporarily disable other vessels, fragile.

Hovercraft - Small Vessel, more traditional design than the GDI equivalent using air cushion principle, allows one infantry unit or squad to garrison inside and fire out, can travel inland or by sea.

Scrin Units
Kraken - Large, Squid-like, slow unless submerged, can submerge to avoid detection and travel quickly, strikes at both sea and air units with melee electric tentacles, must surface to attack, cannot attack land units, can be detected by anti-stealth measures when submerged, vulnerable to tentacle rustfish and torpedo when submerged, only one can be built at any one time.

Rustfish - Small, Buzzer-like shoal of aquatic scrin, fast, can corrode through the hulls of enemy ships quickly on contact, fragile, cannot attack land-based units.

Seadragon - Medium, snake-like aquatic scrin, attacks land units and air based units with its energy beams, detects stealth, can destroy sea-mines.

Clamshell - Small scrin with weak long range cannons, can use its blink ability to appear on land enabling 1 infantry unit or squad to garrison inside and fire out, however while on land this unit is immobile unless blinking.

NB: scrin have fewer naval units due to so many of their tanks being hover based and therefore able to traverse oceans

In addition to the above units from the shipyard i'd perhaps like to see some additional units from the "oil rig" if that ever gets implemented - in addition to its proposed air units i suggest the following naval unit for the Mutants with a cap of 3 at any one time:

Scow - Medium Vessel, weaponless, used to repair friendly naval units

Edited by: M0nkfish

Mar 28 2013, 3:01pm Anchor

Wow, this looks very good M0nkfish and the ideas are more "polished" than what I had - I'm glad to see we are both interested in the same kinds of units ;)

Originally, I had thought that ~3 naval units available to build per side would be plenty for a "balanced combat using only naval units", only because I didn't think building caps would be necessary for these (but it also depended on each of their overall abilities). Since you've listed only up to 5 units per side, I can see it still working and balanced as long as there are definitely some building caps, as you already thought about :) And so it does look like we are on the same page.

I had thought about a Nod submarine too (it's totally a Nod unit), but I'm not sure how easily it could be coded to submerge and emerge without any bugs for this game's engine. So to play it safe, that's why I switched that idea for the Sea Shadow - but if it's no problem, either one or both works for me :)

I'm curious if it would actually work for a transport to have a Blink ability while also carrying something inside - I can see it being a pain to code, if it's even possible.

But, essentially everything else looks great and hopefully Carnius would like to see a lot of these units too :) Either for GDI or Nod, I'd really like to see the name "Dreadnought" for a Destroyer :thumbup:

Edited by: .Mac.

Apr 16 2013, 7:45am Anchor

In the reinforcements bay it could also add a build queue that would allow the production of th2 basic squads and the basic tank of the owners faction. This would help them have a reason to be in skirmish games. Even in the campaign they would be alot more helpfull than just getting you some units the 1st time you capture it. Tunnel hubs could also spawn (every 40 seconds or something) some mutant creatures that would fight on the side of the owner but they they would only spwn at the main hub, not at the tunnel entrances. Would make the hub a priority target, or at least a more often contested one.

Starfox100
Starfox100 "Inferno Phoenix" field Commander
Apr 16 2013, 8:13am Anchor
jfpoliveira12 wrote:In the reinforcements bay it could also add a build queue that would allow the production of th2 basic squads and the basic tank of the owners faction. This would help them have a reason to be in skirmish games. Even in the campaign they would be alot more helpfull than just getting you some units the 1st time you capture it.


I agree with this suggestion. :thumbup: (+)

Edited by: Starfox100

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User Posted Image
May the fox be with you...

Apr 16 2013, 8:45am Anchor

Perhaps when you gain the reinforcement bay, it should give you units when you capture it (as it does now) but also does so again every 40 secs - 1minute (i'm not sure which time interval would be most balanced). I feel this would be better than giving the bay its own production queue as perhaps this would take some uniqueness away from the proposed NOD Montauk II.

Starfox100
Starfox100 "Inferno Phoenix" field Commander
Apr 16 2013, 10:47am Anchor

and also there you got a point.
I also wanted to to something like Generals reinforcements bay. just every ones in a while a free unit.

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User Posted Image
May the fox be with you...

Apr 16 2013, 4:57pm Anchor

I also think a captured Reinforcement Bay automatically deploying free unit(s) in timed intervals is a good idea too. If Carnius doesn't have plans for his version of the Predator Tank to return elsewhere, possibly we could see it again as GDI's reinforcement vehicle from here?

Apr 16 2013, 6:04pm Anchor

Maybe the Predator (or a vehicle based on it, maybe with some AA mild capability) could be everyone's reinforcement vehicle, rather than it being something faction specific. The reason i say this is i think it would be odd for an alien-style unit to deploy from such a terrestrial looking structure and also i'm struggling to think of a NOD equivalent that isn't already available in its standard production queue.

May 7 2013, 9:30am Anchor

Nod could get that light walker from the GDI campaign starting movie (the black and Red one thats about the size of a soldier but larger and appears to have a gattling arm). It could be called Nod Myrmidon. The Scrin Would get a quadropod version of an old tank or something, like they adapted Earth technology and corrupted thet design (+ a four-legged TD Abrams would be cool, it would have to look assimilated though). Just putting out some ideas.

The Myrmidon could have that Gattling cannon on its right side and a Nappalm Missile launcher on the left side. Something like Nod weapons engineers wanting to replace the bikes and buggies for a stronger alternative and they based it on the GDI wolverine. But since it wasn't AA nor as fast as the vehicles it was supposed to replace (besides being much more expensive) it was scrapped but a few units were completed and can be sent out to as prototype reinforcements to Nod commanders who capture these out-of-the-way strategical aid buildings.

Also, (sorry for testing everyones patience) I really think the Tech tunnel hubs should be more usefull, there is no reason to capture them. What do you guys think could be done to them?

P:S: Bring back that awsome predator Carnius, also, if its not OP or you dont have anything against it, Give it the missiles. A three weapon tank would be awsome and would have me capture the Reinforcements Bay at the start of any skirmish (to balance it out, its damage output could be considerably low on any of those weapons, only combining them a target would you get something, and it wouldn't be AA, unlike the Mammoth).

-Redeemer-
-Redeemer- 313th Paratrooper Batallion
Aug 8 2013, 7:14am Anchor
.Mac. wrote: I had thought about a Nod submarine too (it's totally a Nod unit), but I'm not sure how easily it could be coded to submerge and emerge without any bugs for this game's engine. So to play it safe, that's why I switched that idea for the Sea Shadow - but if it's no problem, either one or both works for me :)

I think it would be possible to code it similar to the GDI hover units, i.e. having a button to switch between water level (with slower speed but e.g. other combat abilties ( sea-ground rocket) but vulnerable to every unit) and sub-water level (faster, only sea-sea combat through torpedos and only vulnerable by torpedos (torpedos could be thrown by a certain air-unit additionally to a naval unit). although if there had to be the development choice between submarine and sea-shadow I would prefer sea shadow because its simply a more futuristic and interesting design :D
Btw I would love to have a scrin resemble the design of a cuttlefish Globefish.org i.e. kinda looking like a reaper under-water xD

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