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|Oct 11 2010, 11:00am Anchor|
I'm not going to pretend to know about that movement, but one thing is for sure.
People will not allow to be branded as a machine, and as such be treated that way.
Turning people into brainless machines, and taking everything away from us... everything that makes us human, and ultimately makes us who we are, not just as a Race, but one that should be proud to have come such a long way, since the dark ages.
That movement wants humans to give up what is most precious to us, which is the ability to feel love, compation, and generaly our sense to think and feel for our selves.
Let me describe what image that potraits to me...
Edited by: Soul-Guardian
|Oct 14 2010, 8:47pm Anchor|
Sorry I have to refute almost everything you guys have said these last posts. Most Oranges topics, and some of yours too nelson.
Let me explain. First, Oranges observation of the guide:
1º point. The start that I had on reading the answer. No surprise, as I heard it many times as well indirectly too. But this one I had to read a couple of times before I understood what you said. I'll try my best here... In the last part of the topic. I found nothing wrong about it... I don't see the problem. It is obvious that you have to think differently than those inside the paradigm in order to explain why it doesn't work. For example, a person that is still inside the monetary economy cannot ever possibly judge money and the monetary system as the main cause of corruption, as it doesn't even imagine itself outside that system. So yes, the movement does think differently.
I guess this is an impact of Hollywood movies on films about digital over-minds controlling humans. this scenario is impossible in the current digital technology, and even in quantum. Because the only thing that a computer does is process 1 and 0. that is all. You still need to input the code, the program, the recipe, and the data. Without that, a computer, based on 10101010110101, cannot make a decision. That is something my programming teacher said (he has nothing to do with the movement).
You will actually, and most likely continue to see such abnormal kids to be born, because they are a source of money for corporations. by the reasons I explained above. If you eradicate diseases, you eradicate jobs. And that is not good for a paradigm of "infinite growth" or "debt". This you stated is actually much more worse exploited in our current economy (or anti-economy), than it would be in the TVP. And sure enough, through reason, we would let those people enjoy their life, not turn them in biomass, the movement is composed by human beings for god sake, not machines! And the calculator can't make such decision also, so... I have to refute this point of yours as well...
I saw on your point a very distorted view of TVP. I don't know if it had anything to do with mis-translations from the english-version to the german. It could be, although I don't place my bets there.
And me, knowing this much already about the movement, I took 4 hours to answer almost straight (without reading to compare what I say and be completely sure of what I'm saying. If you notice, I didn't post any external links, because I knew this would take a very long answer). To be honest, I'm tired. It's 2 a.m., and I'm still here. And that is one of the reasons I hate to advocate. Because answers like this could be avoided with a bit more dedicated investigation on your part.
I also saw anxiety. Can I know why, and lets make it the topic of this thread from now on? Because I believe this crisis is not only an economic crisis, it is also an social crisis and that can be a more serious issue. Maybe I can help? Because, as I already said, you repeated many topics.
About opinion. You can call this an opinion, and although I never read the Orientation guide, I did see the 2 presentation videos, the "Where are we now" and "Where are we going", and they pretty much came directly from the orientation guide. After All, Peter Joseph used the guide as the basic for those presentations that were originally projected at an university, or some kind of other lecture. So, I was not completely unaware of what is written inside the book.
Also, before I go, I need to sleep.
Then, as I already said, the TVP would not turn humans into machines. It would rather do the contrary, using machines to free people from monotonous jobs, allowing to have more free time to think. Of course, such amount of free time is not possible in our current system where the rich want to perpetuate the poor, through the debt that money implies. Therefore, automation is needed, and that is why is it some times stated that "Automation is the next revolution in the civilized society" (Albert Einstein).
About love, well. I guess that our system already destroys that, for the many reasons you just read. Money is a destructive machine, it is wasteful, and anti-economic. Love would be extremely important, because as Nicholas stated: "Good actions are needed to build social networks, and at the same time, social networks are needed to commit good actions". I guess it would only help, in the cooperation paradigm of TVP, to forward love, and incentive it! it is senseless to say the contrary.
About your last answer. You don't need to say sorry. We all have to perfect our way of investigation, and be auto-didatic. One thing that my investigation teacher taught me, was to suspect any new information we read, until we have enough info to back it up, and assume it as a solid argument. Because, within mine, or orange perspective, which are in a sense, a compilation of opinions, only one of us can actually be lastly correct, if not, we are at the very best, both wrong.
At last. And my own out of topic, conclusion.
Also. I wanted this topic to change to a more interesting conversation. Maybe we can start again with the question:
Or if by any reason, you have to talk about the movement, and don't want to, or don't want to say why... can I then ask:
|Oct 14 2010, 11:24pm Anchor|
BUT this does not mean that the movement is nice. They aim for a perfect world and forget that humans are not perfect. To not think that someone would abuse this system is in one word pathetic. You should take some of my words with a bit more humor like 12º. Also much of what i said focuses on "to what it would lead" rather than "what they say it is". They did not talk about sex for example.
sorry that i am not going to talk with you anymore about it, you seem to wish the discussion about it to end and so do i. you can find the answers for your points in the guide.
BELIEVE IT OR NOT BUT I WATCHED THE WHOLE DAMN THING!
My opinion about this anti-economic system?
|Oct 15 2010, 7:48am Anchor|
I'm sorry. But lets continue trying to change the topic, after I say:
An adice about the 12º point. When you are trying to be humorous, or express an other feeling, you should try to demonstrate it through senses. The forums are a place that is a bit dangerous to express, because humans are used to see those expressions in the voice and gestures. But a forum doesn't have anything of that, and people may misunderstand you. A solution that revolutionized the forums however, was the introduction of smiles. Otherwise, like i did, the text without such expressions can be read as neutral, and take that point neutrally. I could only take that conclusion until now, a neutral conclusion. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted. Try to express such feeling from now forward in here and other forums. It's best for you, and for everyone else.
I'll re-check the guide then. Maybe I can find something more suspicious after reading this, but even then. I may require to know the exact topics.
And, if they didn't say anything about sex, it also doesn't mean anything. We just don't know. But knowing other informations, I know that sex, and other good relations can actually almost only help cooperation.
I'll await your answer if you wish. But sometimes is just best to share one thing at a time. Just pick one thing that bothers you, and maybe the answer can help the other issues, allowing you to reach your own conclusions at the same time. Just talk A friend of mine, that suffers some psychological issues, and now is better, has told me that her psychologist made an approach like: "packing the clothing in the drawers". The anxiety most of the times derives from stress. And stress is still just a symptom, that something is wrong. Maybe your clothing is littered. Lets pack it one at a time, until you think it's enough.
I also still have to keep my opinion about anti-economy: Search in the thesaurus the meaning of Economy. And then you are going to look that the humans, the planet and the money, and post your conclusions. I'll have to explain step by step if you still can't reach this obvious conclusion....
I also couldn't understand this grammar: "If you mean a world wide one then i have to disagree"
Edited by: ricardodnpereira
|Oct 15 2010, 7:55am Anchor|
LOL. Ricardo... you are suppose to comment, not write a book on this... ease up man. Damn.
Long story short, people need to start getting more involved in government affairs, have a little more power and not let them make all the decisions, because the same medieval "King dictates, comoners do" system still applies today, and all movements are pretty much the same...
More power to the people!
Edited by: Soul-Guardian
|Oct 15 2010, 2:03pm Anchor|
Well one is sure you should not advertise a movement you don't realy know about. But thats typical human:
"My friend is in that movement and he's a good guy so the movement must be good too"
I just want to point out: go your own way! Belive in role models not in leaders!
I think we will need some sort of currancy in future. As non-currancy sociaties will only work in a small organized form.
And ricardo "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free" is so true, but still I belive democracy is the best system till now!
but is that reality? is it possible the human race can emancipate itsself?
|Oct 15 2010, 4:39pm Anchor|
|Oct 18 2010, 7:58am Anchor|
I don´t know shrooman. Those are hard questions. But knowing that the planet is finite is just enough to know that this system of infinite growth is discontinued and it's going to change. It has forcibly to change: By free will, or by force. We are going to see humans jump into various paradigms. Some will succeed, some will fail.
Nelson. I'm sorry lol! I had to make big posts when I feel I need to. For example:
I agree with you, about involvement. That is a principle of participation and activism: To be Active. There are many ways of becoming active though.
And about your edit: Monarchy or Anarchy, or Communism, or Republic. They are all corruptible with at least 2 catalyzers: Lack of education (englobes self-learning, pragmatism, education system, etc...) that can latter destroy active involvement in the society, and money (if fiat currency, and of course, under the infinite growth, etc... mainly the debt system) - you could reform money, but it would mainly need to be reformed to see the planet as finite, and without placing a debt on people. After all, we are all born in debt already, at least literally. LOL
Ah, one thing I almost forgot! Democracy yes, I believe in it too. But true democracy is not in place yet. As I said in that huge post (I believe), what we live in is a indirect-democracy. In a indirect democracy, we elect someone we "thrust" to make the decisions for us. This was needed due to the bureaucratic slowness in 1789 and so forward. But nowadays there is not an excused based on impossibilities of placing an direct democracy due to answer speed, because we developed something called internet already proves that it is possible to have thousands of people real-time aware of a topic and managing to vote, or give opinion about it. Even though, it would require someone to put the projects forward, from thousands of proposals... lol (something would have to arrange that). But at the very least, people could vote directly already, thats undeniable. The last problem resides in the maturity of the people to be ready to assume this direct democracy system.
I have little time. Got to go...
EDIT: 1789, and not 1978 lol
Edited by: ricardodnpereira
|Oct 18 2010, 2:44pm Anchor|
Nice a post from you I can read without falling asleep before reading to the end...
Direct democraty with todays might of the media?
No ruler/government is interested in giving anyone such rights over internet, besides how secure would a poll be?
I would not even do online-banking, so use one of my precious democracy rights on internet?
|Oct 18 2010, 3:10pm Anchor|
I am unsure if democracy is good for us now. There is only a minority witch votes and when they do you have results like 54% - 46%. Lets not forget about how many of them who go and vote do not watch the news and are barely informed about the topic or the world. The day when people can't spell the word democracy anymore and don't know how to make a cross, democracy will get obsolete.
|Oct 18 2010, 6:28pm Anchor|
Democracy isn't the best method you can apply in today's soceity, but who am I to talk?
For instance, the importance of necessity does not co-exist with democracy.
I hope I'm making my point across, as democracy does not work.
from my perpective, dictactorship works better in my house hold... even if I try to be democratic with others, but sometimes you have no choice, but to put an issue up for discussion, rather then making the decision your-self.
PS @ Ricardo:
Edited by: Soul-Guardian
|Oct 19 2010, 7:01pm Anchor|
lol as I stated, but had no time to finish: "The last problem resides in the maturity of the people to be ready to assume this direct democracy system."
Yes, I agree it has gotten worse at some points, but also better at others.
Though I think I've spotted some deliberate campaigns with interest behind, for example, education levels, and some Taxes such IRS.
Also, I'm not really sure that a dictatorship would be best now. Knowing the corruption of the world, and where the powers stand... Seeing for example the power in china and the political values there, or the corporatocracy installed in the USA, the odds is that if there is a solid dictator from these countries, it would most likely be a power monger...
Also, don't forget, that this debt in Europe, that after a succession of tentatives to stall the crisis, now the governments are starting to use the help of the IMF to pay the debt, that basically the central banks created. The problem is, as you know, only the USA has jurisdiction over that bank. And the USA isn't a fine place to have good odds of existing a good dictator... at least, that is what I can shortly conclude now.
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