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Oct 11 2010 Anchor

I'm not going to pretend to know about that movement, but one thing is for sure.
The points that orange made clearly shows what kind of movement it is, and it looks to me that it's just outrageous to say the least... and if it has anything to do with the microship and/or the bar code for people, to brand people as objects, or like Orange so accuratly stated, brand humans as machines, then i am totaly against it, and there is no way that movement can ever work in our society... or in any soceity for that matter.

People will not allow to be branded as a machine, and as such be treated that way.
We have feelings and we have thoughts, and that is something that can never be replaced by a machine.

You state that you are not here to advocate the movement that you so keenly workship, but you are certainly enforcing it and subtely, yet bluntly encouraging people to have a look at it, and join.

Turning people into brainless machines, and taking everything away from us... everything that makes us human, and ultimately makes us who we are, not just as a Race, but one that should be proud to have come such a long way, since the dark ages.
Sure we are primitive, like i previously stated, and don't want to sound hypocreet by contradicting my self... but i also stated that people are opening their eyes, and becoming more understanding, and are not as ignorant as we once were.

That movement wants humans to give up what is most precious to us, which is the ability to feel love, compation, and generaly our sense to think and feel for our selves.
All things that people do take for granted, as they are brainwashed into being possessive and materialistic.

Let me describe what image that potraits to me...
That movement is a Mean Mechanical version of Hitler with a very bad temper and hatred for human beings... in a nut shell.
Orange as spoken very elegantly, but forgive me if I don't do the same, and may sound vulgar when I say that that movement F***ing Sux!
Or did i get it wrong, and i owe you an apology?!

Edited by: Soul-Guardian

Oct 14 2010 Anchor

Sorry I have to refute almost everything you guys have said these last posts. Most Oranges topics, and some of yours too nelson.
I didn't wish to talk about the movement anymore as I stated before, but I see a very distorted view here. Surely even I can sometimes distrust the movement, but I can't under many statements here of which, inside the movement, I find the very contrary logic.

Let me explain. First, Oranges observation of the guide:

1º point. The start that I had on reading the answer. No surprise, as I heard it many times as well indirectly too. But this one I had to read a couple of times before I understood what you said. I'll try my best here... In the last part of the topic. I found nothing wrong about it... I don't see the problem. It is obvious that you have to think differently than those inside the paradigm in order to explain why it doesn't work. For example, a person that is still inside the monetary economy cannot ever possibly judge money and the monetary system as the main cause of corruption, as it doesn't even imagine itself outside that system. So yes, the movement does think differently.
Another example I can get, is the very beginning of this topic. Explaining and probably even you guys can feel that "chain": That you can't really talk to others very easily about THE "NWO", or the "Men behind the curtain" to persons that believe heavly in democracy. You coud actually state: "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free". So obvious that in order to find solutions, You HAVE to think differently. That is what it is about Human experience. The break of one paradigm by another that can render the old one obsolete. In fact, for example, anarchism, or thecnocracy, or the venus project, or local communities cannot work easily and smoothly unless they render the old system obsolete. So this also works for the part of saying, "they start to educate you in their own theories and ideology" - But this is applicable to ANY OTHER MOVEMENT around the world.
Conclusion. I can't see what's wrong here, except the fact of you stating that they think you are dumb... I'll get to this in other point of this post.

2º Point
The movement is NOT against all forms of government, as the objective is not chaos. DUH! Also they don't place boundaries in government definitions by default. In other words: The movement does not recognize socialism, capitalism, communism, fascism, etc... They recognize their existence in terms, but not physically. Physically they search for the best model that can be found when putting all the experience together to form new knowledge. They are also against nations because they separate people. Just remember the example of the power of the free internet to keep them together regardless of boundaries. Can't you agree that it can and is p
culturally and sociology powerful? Although it also came with bad things, but these were distorted views which only separates the humans. There is a study made by a sociologist Nicholas Christakis about the Real Life Social Networks (and not facebook) and, both we knowing that humans need to socialize in order to survive as it can't survive alone, and so, he stated: "Good things are needed to be done in order to build social networks, and at the same time, social networks are needed to do good things". And if you break the social networks, you can't really expect good things, and so, we all also know that cultural violence is destructive to these networks and has the power to render the human alone.
It is over-exagerated to say they are agains all forms of lyfestyle. How comes you are skeptic?... Or did you just wanted to be ironic? Everything, fashion to culture, can be considered a lifestyle, healthy or poor, vegetarian or "macdonalds", are all lifestyles. And the zeitgeist movement also has many lifestyles. Just considering the fact that it is free religion, and that I spotted religious members that accept the movement is proof that the movement varies in lifestyles, and you can't say anymore they replace by their own, and so about personal knowledge as well, but I could be forever telling you why is that here and I would only go to sleep tomorrow...
I can't believe that a movement that doesn't advocate leadership will actually say very directly/indirectly and intentionally/or secretively that they would be against personnel knowledge. I have actually come across some members that are actually afraid of saying their ideas before having though very seriously about them (because they could be wrong) because they fear that other may take their ideas blindly and use them wrongly, but they were most about philosofical questions... You know how those guys, specially teachers at universities keep their arguments until they have solid info to show, like everyone else when either making a thesis or a documentary, because after all, it's their image that it's at stake, but this is another story.

3º point
They replace money with nothing is completely wrong. You here for example show that you still think inside the monetary paradigm for example... So you can't imagine or understand a different model outside of this one. Actually a curiosity to you all: Have you ever searched the meaning of "economic" in a thesaurus?I hope that you will rapidly understand that we do not life inside an economic model anymore, but rather an anti-economic system. To explain... "Economic - A form of efficient management of resources, either they are money, energy or labour-force. The result of an economy is a SAVING." I guess that seeing the world being heavily explored now, and knowing that only energy and resources can sustain money, and that we are leaded to self destruction because we expect infinite resources in a finite planet, that we actually live, not in a economic system, but rather an Anti-economic system, as we are not efficiently saving anything at all, and that there is still more waste that recycling for example.
Knowing this, you have to change the monetary system, and so the economic paradigm, because many people have a distorted view of the meaning of the word e-c-o-n-o-m-y!
And so, what the Venus Project proposes is a resource-based economy. It's still, and effectively, an economy. So they calculate how many resources are needed to do a certain action. Not how much money is needed. I guess we can agree with that, that what does build a house, is not money, but bricks, right? Actually nowadays, there are many other ways way more efficient than bricks to build buildings and all that. It's just that the people are disoriented and do not know the current state of technology, as money does not provide it. What provides knowledge and even culture or even resources to make it is access to things, not money. As you cannot insert money in the deposit of your car and make it move.

4º point
Another question it took me some time to understand... I guess you tried to say that: they do not tell us how the people that don't accept the venus project, if installed in the world, will be treated inside the venus project... I can't see how skeptic you are if you can't even read things correctly. I'm starting to doubt if you even read the guide until the end, or if you also just relied in the guide to fundament these opinions, or you misinterpreted what the movement says or, if you watch too much Alex Jones. LOL I can't say for sure. This because. IF the Venus Project exists, it will not be installed from above by big corporations or political parties. Those are run by people that wish to perpetuate their kind in their class. If the Venus Project is installed, it will be in a long term, little by little, probably originated in local communities, and so, it will emerge from below to the top, and not the contrary.
So I guess you don't need to fear this point. Until the Venus Project if perfected (even then, perfection is not achievable, that is a characteristic of a paradigm), there will always be a place for those that do not accept such ideas, until all the world people join together to cooperate, if the Venus Project can really become the answer and the model that can achieve such thing, because, a monetary system is doing the contrary. Although of the word "Globalization", there is much mess around, and many people are excluded in this "globalization" act, and they are needed to be so, if the monetary system is to survive... Thats a bad thing that I'm sure we all agree.
And I hope they vanish peacefully and consent rather by war and death too, if such model is correct! If it is not, other paradigms will appear to correct the directions of TVP, like TVP is trying to correct the monetary system. It's a paradigm after the other.
I remember now, what my university teacher said about knowledge, and by my own conclusion, but surely he could have affirmed the same, that the explanation he gave was the reason behind many religions too: "It is best to have a basic information, even if it is false, rather than no knowledge at all, and exist in chaos. Why? Because the human being has a natural need to socialize and so he need to organize. And even more critic, in order to build new and better knowledge, you need to evolve from current knowledge, and current paradigms. One does say, that "Human beings learn from their mistakes" - this thesis cannot exist, if the human being doesn't commit a mistake first. So to say, recognizing a mistake is not a negative impact, but rather a positive one, as that entity would be elevating to a new understanding.

5º point
I can't take this... First, because the TVP advocates technocracy - Direct democracy (vs our current unconscious paradigm of indirect democracy, that people believe to be democracy. Search the terms "Indirect democracy" and "Direct democracy". i'm very sure that anarchists defend direct democracy too). Technocracy is the act of applying direct democracy,votes on projects, voted by anyone, with the help of technology. For example: Direct democracy was not possible in 1789, because we all understand that their state of technology did not allow such a thing. It was an utopia at the time, but it has to reason to continue to be so. As already stated countless times, they do not advocate leadership, and do advocate self-learning. So forget they want power. If these things come in place, technocracy and a global conscience for self-learning, how much can they then control and have power. It's impossible. And that is a reason why education as an enemy to centralized power, and which the current elite try to perpetuate their class by "stupidifying" the young generation at school.

6º point
You could actually make a joke at this but, this is also wrong. They do not want to replace the government with a calculator, they want to replace it with technocracy. And how people vote within technocracy, while at the same time trying to make the best decision? Simple: with the application of the scientific method. The scientific method is something any human can apply, and study, as it is just a number of rules used for pragmatic development. I say it is harder to learn how to drive than to learn the basics of the scientific method: anyone can learn it, and even now, today, it may be useful even to you, if you learn how to use it. And it would be so much easier to make a scientific method decision, to support a technocracy vote, if the voters had access to factual information to make such decisions. Unfortunately, in a system that requires profit, companies privatize such information, and people cannot make such decisions, except if based in their own life experience in most of the cases (this is another big reason why Having access to things can actually be better than just owning them)
the calculator will not replace anything except a job/function. The calculator is a TOOL, and it cannot make it's own decision without being imputed information first. That information has still to be inputed by, you guessed it, a human being. A Calculator, I say again, cannot make decisions in its own, so it cannot become a govern, and hence, become a government. Another huge flaw in your "skepticism".

7º point
I agree. Gods do not exists in the movement vision, although, as stated, they are free religion, and so they couldn't care less about such issue. Everyone is free to choose what to believe in. They just believe that through reasoning, that everyone has a better chance of reaching a consensus. But right now, above everything else, they respect the most fundamental rule that is in most cases shared between all religions. The element of Love for the next. After all the motto is cooperation right? LOL. In a very resumed way, I guess that is why they don't defend gods (they are also only sourced in relates and not facts, and so, the gods don't actually have physical proof of their existence, and so it is dangerous to believe in gods)

8º point
I would have to repeat many thing to answer to this point. You exaggerated in the topics pointed out to the guide.
Shortly I would say: Rights are not stated, because people have already access to things without a price. Only that quantities are managed under a pragmatic scientific model. But one curiosity for you. "You could say that there is, lets say, 50% of the world food does not reach populations in starvation in the world right? Well, there is also 50% of food focused on overweigh population. So you have a Stable 50% of food distribution, and another 50% misbalanced. Under a scientific method, this would happen (at least it had a chance to be stalled). And overweight is bad for health, so it's also bad to eat too much. So you eat the food that you need to be healthy. And so again, the calculator does not make a decision, it is just a tool... DUH!

9º point
"It reduces humans to biological machines". This is completely non-skeptical. it is actually distorted. First. Definition of Machine: " a machine is a device that uses energy in order to propel force to accomplish a task". Definition of device: "thing made or adapted for a particular purpose, esp. a mechanical or electronic contrivance". A human being does not make simple tasks, so it cannot be a machine. At the very best, it could be reduced to a Biological Organism. and even then, as I already explained, a calculator, or a machine, cannot make decisions, and only performs simple and programed tasks. A human being is still and will be for now I-r-r-e-p-l-a-c-e-a-b-l-e.

10º point
what a skeptic decision... "They aim for efficiency witch is in my opinion even worse than aiming for money", meaning that, as I explained, being money a destructive paradigm right now, you don't mind to destroy yourself right? Because money is exploiting the world and we only have this one... :( I'll just jump this statement. Try not to repeat it many times because it's not good for your image. And also about efficiency, that is what economy is all about, as I also explained.
Also many point here have already been explained. you repeat too much, and that is a sign of anxiety. I wonder. what are you anxious for (if you are so)? because I look at a calculator, and I still need to input the data myself, to answer quickly a proble, that can be part of a bigger one, that I could be trying to solve. So I just saw a calculator as a tool.

I guess this is an impact of Hollywood movies on films about digital over-minds controlling humans. this scenario is impossible in the current digital technology, and even in quantum. Because the only thing that a computer does is process 1 and 0. that is all. You still need to input the code, the program, the recipe, and the data. Without that, a computer, based on 10101010110101, cannot make a decision. That is something my programming teacher said (he has nothing to do with the movement).

11º point
They never said anything about prohibiting sex. Sex is a natural thing, and there is nothing wrong about it. About being safe, yes, if the couple has diseases, and they have a risk of passing to the other, or to the next generation, would it be right to have sext in that way? To have kids? Would you wish anyone in the world to be born with a Chronic Disease? You wouldn't be that bad would you?... In the other hand, diseases supports professions, it supports doctors. If you eradicate the HIV virus, you would eliminate professions. And that is not going to happen in a money profit based world... You you could actually eradicate the disease, and then have safe sex, without the need of contraceptives. Wouldn't that be a good thing?
And "children witch would be sick or abnormal would be described as a waste of resources. well just kill it and look if the next one comes out better. they will most likely produce bio mass out of its corpse." This is another distorted view of the TVP. Many of the reasons have been said right now. And now I'll say again:

You will actually, and most likely continue to see such abnormal kids to be born, because they are a source of money for corporations. by the reasons I explained above. If you eradicate diseases, you eradicate jobs. And that is not good for a paradigm of "infinite growth" or "debt". This you stated is actually much more worse exploited in our current economy (or anti-economy), than it would be in the TVP. And sure enough, through reason, we would let those people enjoy their life, not turn them in biomass, the movement is composed by human beings for god sake, not machines! And the calculator can't make such decision also, so... I have to refute this point of yours as well...

12º point
You repeated it at points 5 and 8. you wasting both my time, yours, and worse, everyone else reading this as well...

13º point
A computer is a tool. It cannot also make decisions under the binary code. only simple tasks (can you find a more simplest tasks, than just calculating 1's and 0's.... ? 10101010011100110111)

14º point
They WANT YOU TO THINK. And I think I was already very clear why before in this post (with the self learning motives, the access to things, the technocracy, etc...). Indeed, if you have a question, you can try to solve that problem with the help of a computer. But don't forget, that the most complex tasks will still have to be made by humans. Am I really that stupid? No. I can make my own calculations too. But if you need to calculate this 12312245365467326+124778545634225568434347= X, a calculator comes in handy, even if I could calculate it myself. It is still though, very important to learn manual calculation to train your grey mass, the brain. For example, they still teach manual calculation to pupils because of that, even if calculators already exist for centuries. A human being is, I say again: I-r-r-e-p-l-a-c-e-a-b-l-e.

15º point
Committing suicide will not end in the same result as fighting for life. This was not a very skeptic answer... (FOR GOD SAKE MAN!!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS. You call yourself skeptic? You are scaring me!) Humans are not worthless pieces of junk as stated, and the reasons it's because a computer cannot make decisions. The only thing that androids/machines would replace is monotonous jobs that enslave people, and so have no time to think.
Replacing people by machines in pattern like jobs, would free people, allowing them to have more incentives, the stars and culture, and so allowing them to think.
This is one of the strategies that THE "NWO" tries to use. To perpetuate people in stressing jobs so they don't have time to think, and so, the brain vegetates.

I saw on your point a very distorted view of TVP. I don't know if it had anything to do with mis-translations from the english-version to the german. It could be, although I don't place my bets there.
I also can't believe that you can make a skeptical decision based on 2 hours of reading and writing at the same time. By the way, were you reading on a hurry just to answer me? I don't know, but I think you should read better.

And me, knowing this much already about the movement, I took 4 hours to answer almost straight (without reading to compare what I say and be completely sure of what I'm saying. If you notice, I didn't post any external links, because I knew this would take a very long answer). To be honest, I'm tired. It's 2 a.m., and I'm still here. And that is one of the reasons I hate to advocate. Because answers like this could be avoided with a bit more dedicated investigation on your part.

I also saw anxiety. Can I know why, and lets make it the topic of this thread from now on? Because I believe this crisis is not only an economic crisis, it is also an social crisis and that can be a more serious issue. Maybe I can help? Because, as I already said, you repeated many topics.

About opinion. You can call this an opinion, and although I never read the Orientation guide, I did see the 2 presentation videos, the "Where are we now" and "Where are we going", and they pretty much came directly from the orientation guide. After All, Peter Joseph used the guide as the basic for those presentations that were originally projected at an university, or some kind of other lecture. So, I was not completely unaware of what is written inside the book.

Also, before I go, I need to sleep.
@Nelson. You say that inviting to forums can be a main way to invite people to join. You could say that, it does influence alright, and I don't deny it. BUT, that still has to be their own decision. Just because you join the forum doesn't mean you join the movement. In fact, many guys just join to criticize the movement, having an totally contrary result than the one that you just meant.
Also, the term "many people joining the movement by the forum" is very relative by itself, because it will depend on the ideology installed inside the forum. You can visit the forum, and agree, or disagree with what is there. If a person agrees, fine. The odds that such person joins the movement raises (but still it doesn't mean it will join. I could join other movements for example, or no movement at all). But, if the person disagrees, most likely it will happen the contrary. So in a technical way, it's still 50-50. The reason is the main way to incentive people to join.

Then, as I already said, the TVP would not turn humans into machines. It would rather do the contrary, using machines to free people from monotonous jobs, allowing to have more free time to think. Of course, such amount of free time is not possible in our current system where the rich want to perpetuate the poor, through the debt that money implies. Therefore, automation is needed, and that is why is it some times stated that "Automation is the next revolution in the civilized society" (Albert Einstein).

About love, well. I guess that our system already destroys that, for the many reasons you just read. Money is a destructive machine, it is wasteful, and anti-economic. Love would be extremely important, because as Nicholas stated: "Good actions are needed to build social networks, and at the same time, social networks are needed to commit good actions". I guess it would only help, in the cooperation paradigm of TVP, to forward love, and incentive it! it is senseless to say the contrary.

About your last answer. You don't need to say sorry. We all have to perfect our way of investigation, and be auto-didatic. One thing that my investigation teacher taught me, was to suspect any new information we read, until we have enough info to back it up, and assume it as a solid argument. Because, within mine, or orange perspective, which are in a sense, a compilation of opinions, only one of us can actually be lastly correct, if not, we are at the very best, both wrong.
Meaning that you can both investigate our opinions, and make your decision, suspecting them. Or you can ignore both us, and the movement. But try your best not to bear false witnesses.

At last. And my own out of topic, conclusion.
This is the last time I want to speak here about the movement. I had to act, because so did nelson asked, and because I don't want to see distorted views of reality, such as things that orange said that in a empiric way, and and not possible, neither valid, and I say, to clear any doubts, to search about what is a -valid argument-, and -invalid argument- before "argumenting" against what I said now. The reason why, Is because the last thing I want is to offend anyone. And If I did so, point out why and I'll remove that sentence.

Also. I wanted this topic to change to a more interesting conversation. Maybe we can start again with the question:
What are you anxious about orange?

Or if by any reason, you have to talk about the movement, and don't want to, or don't want to say why... can I then ask:
What are your opinions about this anti-economic system?

Oct 14 2010 Anchor
arguing with you is pointless until you watched it. i do believe that there are nice persons in the movement witch write enjoyable stuff and are good for a talk.

BUT this does not mean that the movement is nice. They aim for a perfect world and forget that humans are not perfect. To not think that someone would abuse this system is in one word pathetic. You should take some of my words with a bit more humor like 12º. Also much of what i said focuses on "to what it would lead" rather than "what they say it is". They did not talk about sex for example.

sorry that i am not going to talk with you anymore about it, you seem to wish the discussion about it to end and so do i. you can find the answers for your points in the guide.


What am i anxious about?
its only fair to ask me this question and deserves a good answer. i may write a book about it and send it to you when its done :)

My opinion about this anti-economic system?
Witch anti-economic system? If you mean a world wide one then i have to disagree. its the opposite.

Oct 15 2010 Anchor

I'm sorry. But lets continue trying to change the topic, after I say:
The designers, as everyone else, understands that they can never achieve perfection. I don't remmember that being said by them. Jaques Fresco was very explicit about that when he was interviewed in Addendum, that perfection is unachievable. And this TVP system is a way to try to get out of the current that is ALREADY abused, but nothing is going to happen unless it appears from below, from us, so until we have that huge TVP final stage, there is a long way to go, and we have a lot of decision power, as they would have to be, our own decisions. I really can't get how much abused it would be if you simply have access to things and learn. Knowledge is a very powerful thing, it is enough to incentive uprisings. I'd say that it is harder in this system to perpetuate a society, than the monetary one that we currently have. Don't forget that, the monetary system went from a not fiat currency to a fiat currency... and trying to solve the problems putting things like before doesn't mean they will be forever solved.
in the other hand, an RBE has never been tried yet on a very organized scale, although models of this already exist, and existed throughout history as local communities models.

An adice about the 12º point. When you are trying to be humorous, or express an other feeling, you should try to demonstrate it through senses. The forums are a place that is a bit dangerous to express, because humans are used to see those expressions in the voice and gestures. But a forum doesn't have anything of that, and people may misunderstand you. A solution that revolutionized the forums however, was the introduction of smiles. Otherwise, like i did, the text without such expressions can be read as neutral, and take that point neutrally. I could only take that conclusion until now, a neutral conclusion. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted. Try to express such feeling from now forward in here and other forums. It's best for you, and for everyone else.

I'll re-check the guide then. Maybe I can find something more suspicious after reading this, but even then. I may require to know the exact topics.
Since this thread should continue on the crisis issue, if you wish, just PM those topics. And I mean the titles and subtitles of that guide. Not opinions.

And, if they didn't say anything about sex, it also doesn't mean anything. We just don't know. But knowing other informations, I know that sex, and other good relations can actually almost only help cooperation.


I'll await your answer if you wish. But sometimes is just best to share one thing at a time. Just pick one thing that bothers you, and maybe the answer can help the other issues, allowing you to reach your own conclusions at the same time. Just talk :) A friend of mine, that suffers some psychological issues, and now is better, has told me that her psychologist made an approach like: "packing the clothing in the drawers". The anxiety most of the times derives from stress. And stress is still just a symptom, that something is wrong. Maybe your clothing is littered. Lets pack it one at a time, until you think it's enough.

I also still have to keep my opinion about anti-economy: Search in the thesaurus the meaning of Economy. And then you are going to look that the humans, the planet and the money, and post your conclusions. I'll have to explain step by step if you still can't reach this obvious conclusion....

I also couldn't understand this grammar: "If you mean a world wide one then i have to disagree"

Peace ;)

Edited by: ricardodnpereira

Oct 15 2010 Anchor

LOL. Ricardo... you are suppose to comment, not write a book on this... ease up man. Damn.
You're taking this way too seriously.
You're begining to sound like a frikkin librarian.

Long story short, people need to start getting more involved in government affairs, have a little more power and not let them make all the decisions, because the same medieval "King dictates, comoners do" system still applies today, and all movements are pretty much the same...
Corrupt and manipulative.

More power to the people!
Not too much, but a little more never-the-less.

I don't know which is worse, Monarchies or Anarchies.
Then again Republics are considered the most corrupted...

Edited by: Soul-Guardian

Oct 15 2010 Anchor

Well one is sure you should not advertise a movement you don't realy know about. But thats typical human:

"My friend is in that movement and he's a good guy so the movement must be good too"
It does not have to be a leader that brings you in a funny ambit!
And dogmata movents, like that you are talking about seems to be such, are bad anyway. Dogmata are for weak people not being ableto think of their own.
And there again you can see in some cases you can educate people in wrong ways. I rember my econamy-lessons in school, there I was tought things I really stand against!(I was tought how to exploit workers best) But I did not get brainwashed, and still belive kapitalism is bad! But most people just eat what they are given, and belive what they are told. (well thats more simple than using your brain)
In our schools we are not educated to think of our own. We have to learn formulars and vocabulary, and that does not advocate self-contained thinking!

I just want to point out: go your own way! Belive in role models not in leaders!
I belive in Christ as a role model, not as gods son. (Is that blasphemy?)
He told us (well thats what I read in bible) to respect your neighbour. And not to do any harm to others.
Too he damned the corrupt priests and salesmen!
But I never would try to proselytize/evangelize somebody, because I think its the wrong way!
Nothing worse that a radical christ/moslem/hindu they just spread hatered.
Relegion can enslave, but too lead you to good!
But most important is to use YOUR brain, not quote anybody!
So its good to speak with people being in movements but not to force others to be in that movement.


I think we will need some sort of currancy in future. As non-currancy sociaties will only work in a small organized form.

And ricardo "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free" is so true, but still I belive democracy is the best system till now!
But too I think with the right education a Anarchistic system would be best. But then we humans would have to overcome their greed!
Too probably monarchy would work if king wants the best for their tributary, and not best for their family and the king would need to be wise too :D

but is that reality? is it possible the human race can emancipate itsself?

Oct 15 2010 Anchor


Oct 18 2010 Anchor

I don´t know shrooman. Those are hard questions. But knowing that the planet is finite is just enough to know that this system of infinite growth is discontinued and it's going to change. It has forcibly to change: By free will, or by force. We are going to see humans jump into various paradigms. Some will succeed, some will fail.
I can't disagree with at least most of what you said, if not all.


Nelson. I'm sorry lol! :D I had to make big posts when I feel I need to. For example:
You can try to explain a big issue with small answer, and you can waste days to post those answers until you get a response day after day. Or you can write the hole thing down, and then you can have 2 results: some people manage to read carefully such big text, some can't and important statements stay hidden between the others; but at least you have the advantage of only having to quote again those small parts you wrote that may have been missed.

I agree with you, about involvement. That is a principle of participation and activism: To be Active. There are many ways of becoming active though.

And about your edit: Monarchy or Anarchy, or Communism, or Republic. They are all corruptible with at least 2 catalyzers: Lack of education (englobes self-learning, pragmatism, education system, etc...) that can latter destroy active involvement in the society, and money (if fiat currency, and of course, under the infinite growth, etc... mainly the debt system) - you could reform money, but it would mainly need to be reformed to see the planet as finite, and without placing a debt on people. After all, we are all born in debt already, at least literally. LOL


Ah, one thing I almost forgot! Democracy yes, I believe in it too. But true democracy is not in place yet. As I said in that huge post (I believe), what we live in is a indirect-democracy. In a indirect democracy, we elect someone we "thrust" to make the decisions for us. This was needed due to the bureaucratic slowness in 1789 and so forward. But nowadays there is not an excused based on impossibilities of placing an direct democracy due to answer speed, because we developed something called internet already proves that it is possible to have thousands of people real-time aware of a topic and managing to vote, or give opinion about it. Even though, it would require someone to put the projects forward, from thousands of proposals... lol (something would have to arrange that). But at the very least, people could vote directly already, thats undeniable. The last problem resides in the maturity of the people to be ready to assume this direct democracy system.

I have little time. Got to go...

EDIT: 1789, and not 1978 lol

Edited by: ricardodnpereira

Oct 18 2010 Anchor

Nice a post from you I can read without falling asleep before reading to the end... :paranoid:

Direct democraty with todays might of the media? :S
the masses are so simple to manipulate...

No ruler/government is interested in giving anyone such rights over internet, besides how secure would a poll be?
would chinese/russian/us hackers manipulate the polls?

I would not even do online-banking, so use one of my precious democracy rights on internet?

Oct 18 2010 Anchor

I am unsure if democracy is good for us now. There is only a minority witch votes and when they do you have results like 54% - 46%. Lets not forget about how many of them who go and vote do not watch the news and are barely informed about the topic or the world. The day when people can't spell the word democracy anymore and don't know how to make a cross, democracy will get obsolete.

Oct 18 2010 Anchor

Democracy isn't the best method you can apply in today's soceity, but who am I to talk?
I am not a democratic person... I like to live life the way I want to... democracy brings choice and options which I am not prepared to discuss when it comes to solving a problem, or getting somewhere in life.

For instance, the importance of necessity does not co-exist with democracy.
You get the bus, and you and someone around your age get in the bus at the same time.
What do you do?
Do you kindly offer the seat, or do you take it without a second thought?
Democracy is applied here, but I don't even want to get to that position of having to decide, so I take it if I get there first.
Only... offcourse, if it's an elderly person, or a pregnant woman, then I give the seat.

I hope I'm making my point across, as democracy does not work.
People are way to selfish... allways been, allways will.
Me... I'm not too selfish, but I beleive that I should be free to do my life the way I want, and when it comes to be democratic, I would rather dictate.

from my perpective, dictactorship works better in my house hold... even if I try to be democratic with others, but sometimes you have no choice, but to put an issue up for discussion, rather then making the decision your-self.

PS @ Ricardo:
What do you think of the portuguese government since the fall of the empire back in the 70's?

Edited by: Soul-Guardian

Oct 19 2010 Anchor

lol as I stated, but had no time to finish: "The last problem resides in the maturity of the people to be ready to assume this direct democracy system."
I guess you guys filled up the rest of the topic with the problems though :)


r Relson

Yes, I agree it has gotten worse at some points, but also better at others.
It seemed that at the beginning, it looked cool for people... But then, since i was already the same system from above the world, soon, interests and debts would fall to the portuguese markets, and so, privatization of some huge public companies like EDP, or Portugal Telecom. But all that happened a bit the same all over the "1º World" I guess.

Though I think I've spotted some deliberate campaigns with interest behind, for example, education levels, and some Taxes such IRS.
This is still, and probably mainly, a reflection of the culture that was already spreading through the world from a "system" level.


Also, I'm not really sure that a dictatorship would be best now. Knowing the corruption of the world, and where the powers stand... Seeing for example the power in china and the political values there, or the corporatocracy installed in the USA, the odds is that if there is a solid dictator from these countries, it would most likely be a power monger...
nevertheless, it is always possible to pop out a good dictator, though the odds are little.

Also, don't forget, that this debt in Europe, that after a succession of tentatives to stall the crisis, now the governments are starting to use the help of the IMF to pay the debt, that basically the central banks created. The problem is, as you know, only the USA has jurisdiction over that bank. And the USA isn't a fine place to have good odds of existing a good dictator... at least, that is what I can shortly conclude now.

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