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Rules for Christians of Moddb.

Feb 4, 2015 News 8 comments

After a discussion between MattmanDude, CrazyOldTeenager, and myself, a short (but to the point) series of rules will now be coming into effect for this...

Musings: My faith is Byzantine
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Musings: My faith is Byzantine

Jan 9, 2015 News 1 comment

Basileus Basileon Basileuon Basileuonton. Translated as "king of kings, ruling over rulers"

What is the Bible?
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What is the Bible?

Dec 29, 2014 News 25 comments

Just a message from an old wanderer passing through.

Armor, Rank, and Dogma.
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Armor, Rank, and Dogma.

Nov 27, 2014 News 3 comments

Lot of information for new recruits packed into a mere article. Also has three medal of honor soundtracks to listen too while reading if you want. Enjoy.

God's Grand Army.
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God's Grand Army.

Sep 1, 2014 News 7 comments

Your new order of business now that you are a member of the Grand Army of the Lord Jesus Christ.

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Post comment Comments  (30 - 40 of 2,106)
TheObscure
TheObscure Apr 26 2015, 2:47pm says:

I thought it would be interesting to ask you guys the following question:

Will the rapture occur before the tribulation, or after the tribulation?

I am leaning towards the latter and this following documentary really convinced me.

Youtube.com

What do you guys think?

+1 vote     reply to comment
Aeon Disciple
Aeon Disciple Apr 27 2015, 5:09am replied:

Raptureready.com
Should clear that up.

2/3rds of the world's population will die during the Great Tribulation, and the other third will be fighting for it's life on the verge of extinction. Ultimately leading to the battle of Armageddon where all will turn on Israel.

But no where, in the Bible does it say God would put the Church through this endeavor. The Great Tribulation is for Israel, to lead them back to God. It's their show, not ours. Our show is now, during the Church Age, not the Tribulation.

Ive not only looked at God as my best friend down through the years, but also my Supreme Commander in His Grand Army. And if there's anything he's taught me through all these trials and tribulations Ive had to go through, he doesn't leave his Troopers behind. Even busted up ones like me. He's not going to leave you out to dry, but you have to trust him and remain faithful.

Be ready, that's all I can tell you.

+2 votes     reply to comment
TheObscure
TheObscure Apr 27 2015, 8:50am replied:

By reading through your comment, I noticed that you believe in the pre-trib. It seems that most people do nowadays, and I can understand why. In the past 2 centuries it has become the popular doctrine and it is what you will hear in most churches today. I find it unfortunate because there are verses in the bible that clearly states that the rapture occurs after the tribulation and not anywhere else. Here is the most popular one to support the post-trib rapture:

Matthew 24:29

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I would really suggest you to watch that documentary on YouTube I linked in my previous comment. It thoroughly explains why the rapture must occur after the tribulation and not before it. It will be worth your while to watch it, and I always say to people when I bring up a discussion such as this that it is best to look at both doctrines before making a choice to believe either one of them.

+2 votes     reply to comment
Aeon Disciple
Aeon Disciple Apr 27 2015, 3:18pm replied:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

Matthew 24:40-42
"Two men will be out in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken, and one will be left. Therefore, stay awake! For you do not know on which day your Lord will come."

Luke 17:34-35
"I tell you, on that night there will be two people in one bed; one will be taken, the other left. And there will be two women grinding meal together; one will be taken, the other left.”

It will be a great harvest, a separating from the faithful and the unfaithful. God did not ordain his people for the wraith that is to come. These versus would make no sense, if the rapture were to happen at the Second Coming, why leave if the Lord was taking the Earth? He's taking his people before the rapture, before judgement.

Did you read the link I provided in the original post?
It explained things pretty nicely.

+2 votes     reply to comment
TheObscure
TheObscure Apr 27 2015, 3:58pm replied:

Yes, I briefly scanned through the link you gave me. Though I already know why the pre-tribulation believers believe what they believe. So I don't need to hear their defense again.

As for the verses you provided, they are not placed in context, nor do they specifically give an order of what will happen in the end times (or in relation with the chronology of events). They just describe how some will be taken and others left behind. Matthew 24:29 on the other hand, clearly says in one verse "Immediately after the tribulation" his second coming will happen. The following verses 30 and 31 go on to describe how he will appear in the clouds to gather his elect.

Another point I want to touch is that the wrath of God and the Tribulation are two different events. When God said we are not appointed to his wrath, he only said that we won't have to endure that. We do however, have to endure the Tribulation and nowhere in the bible it says that we won't have to. In fact, all the important/popular bible figures endured tribulations and persecutions of their own. Why should we be excluded from this?

Lastly, you quoted Matthew 24:40-42. You do realize that you took this verse out of context? As you can see, this verse is a followup from Matthew 24:29-39. It describes how the "Second Coming" will take away the one woman that is grinding at the mill, and not the rapture.

I just want to say that the Pre-tribulation rapture is not scriptural and it is not find anywhere in the bible. Matthew 24:29 clearly says "Immediately after the tribulation".

I would like to hear your response to this brother. :)

+2 votes     reply to comment
Aeon Disciple
Aeon Disciple Apr 27 2015, 4:32pm replied:

Your scripture you provided is in context to the elect already in the four corners of heaven. The people who already went to be with the Lord either because of the rapture or through natural means.

With all due respect, your the one who took it out of context. The scriptures I provided are in reference to God gathering his elect before the tribulation. It clearly states people will be taken. And they will be taken before Judgement.

Now here is my question to you, why would people be taken if it's the Second Coming?

Your argument makes no sense, specifically because, when Christ comes as described in Revelation and when he saves Israel, all the Saints of God will be coming with Him back to Earth to take permanent residence in New Jerusalem. God's Capitol, brought here to Earth.

There would be no need for people to be raptured at that point. So if your going to throw out the pre-tribulation rapture, you may as well throw out the whole thing. Because then it would no longer be needed.

+2 votes     reply to comment
TheObscure
TheObscure Apr 27 2015, 5:59pm replied:

Please elaborate your first paragraph. I want to know why it is in context with Matthew 24:29. Verse 29 clearly states "after the Tribulation".

I took no verse out of context. Let me prove that I didn't and prove that you did. I referenced Matthew 24:29-42. I only used that as reference so far in my discussion with you. I said that those series of verses that directly follow each other thoroughly explain that the Rapture happens after the tribulation. I took nothing out of context there as all of them are standing in a fixed chronology. I quoted the whole string of verses of Matthew 24 without quoting only one of them like you did. You quoted Matthew 24:40-42 and based your argument on that verse as prove of the rapture before the Second Coming. I am sorry but that is out of context. You disregarded all the verses that came before it that describe how the Lord will come clearly "After the Tribulation".

In response to your 4th paragraph, I haven't revealed an argument yet as I have only quoted Matthew 24 directly from the bible waiting for you to respond to it by telling me why it is not the rapture. It clearly states in those verses that God will gather his elect. Matthew 24 also doesn't talk about when the New Jerusalem will occur and when God will come to Earth with the saints. It only describes the rapture. Those things will occur after God has poured his wrath out. Thus Matthew 24 does talk about the only Rapture.

As you can see, I've kept my argument solely on Matthew 24 by only quoting the verses in it. You are taking verses from different areas of the Bible and putting them next to each other and basing your argument on those. They have no timeline in them and are out of context; they only describe the rapture itself, and not when it will be. Matthew 24 does have a timeline and it clearly says "After the Tribulation". I want you to respond to Matthew 24:29 but it seems that you are avoiding it.

+2 votes     reply to comment
Aeon Disciple
Aeon Disciple Apr 27 2015, 6:07pm replied:

I'm not avoiding anything, you've simply taken the scripture from Matthew out of context. It's not referring to anyone being raptured, just the gathering of those already in heaven after the Tribulation.

+2 votes     reply to comment
TheObscure
TheObscure Apr 27 2015, 6:11pm replied:

You said I have taken scripture from Matthew out of context by saying it is about the rapture. Well now you are contradicting yourself because you said that Matthew 24:40-42 is about the rapture. This verse:

"Two men will be out in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken, and one will be left. Therefore, stay awake! For you do not know on which day your Lord will come."

With all due respect brother, your doctrine of when the rapture occurs is not Biblical. The pre-tribulaton rapture doctrine is the work of Satan to deceive the Christians so that they will accept the anti-Christ. Satan wants the church to believe in this doctrine so that they are asleep to the events described in the book of Revelations.

Look at Thessalonians 2:1-3

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

+2 votes     reply to comment
Aeon Disciple
Aeon Disciple Apr 27 2015, 6:36pm replied:

Matthew 24:29-31 is not in reference to 24:40-42.
Before 40-42 they are speaking of the days of Noah and the destruction of the wicked.

Ive explained it before and I will do so again.

There is no point in a *rapture* if it is not before the tribulation. If you do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, than don't believe in it at all.

2/3rds of the worlds' population will be wiped out during the tribulation and the rest just trying to survive, the idea of any one of us being around long enough to be deceived is laughable at best.

Besides, if you wanted deception just try the modern church. Full or "prosperity pimp" preachers, those who make people pay money for salvation, sellouts who try to say we and Islam are one in the same, traitors who hold the law of the land and political correctness above the law of God. Self righteous individuals who gossip and lie about others and yet call themselves Christians. Men and women who have given heed to seducing spirits and instead preach psychology or prayer shaws instead of the Message of the Cross.

The modern church is already deceived.
They have betrayed Jehovah, and will be judged in due time for it.

Yet a remnant remains. May be small, but still strong.

+2 votes     reply to comment
TheObscure
TheObscure Apr 27 2015, 6:37pm replied:

How can you say that Matthew 24:29-31 is not in context with 24:40-42? There is a reason why the things in the Bible are written in order. In those verses beyond Matthew 24:29-31 they describe how it will be when God appears in the second coming/rapture.

There is a point in a rapture after the tribulation. It is to separate the faithful from the false Christians. Like I said before, every Bible figure endured tribulations and persecutions of their own. Why would we be excluded from that?

Lastly, I want you to take a look at the documentary I posted in my first comment. It will describe my argument a 100 times better along with reasons why the pre-trib rapture is false. It is best to take a good look at both sides of the argument first before making a decision as to which one you will believe. Just watch it with an open mind and I hope God will reveal the truth to you brother.

+2 votes     reply to comment
Aeon Disciple
Aeon Disciple Apr 27 2015, 6:44pm replied:

The Bible jumps around from topic to topic quite often.

The faithful and unfaithful will be dead by that time.
Have you read of the terror and persecution people who believe in God will endure during that time? This isn't a joke, your much more likely to be killed by a meteor from the sky right now than survive the tribulation.

I did look at it.
It was just one young guy, no well respected Preachers or people of Doctrine.

Billy Graham believed in the rapture before the tribulation, as does Benny Hinn, Jimmy Swaggert, Billy Sunday, R.W. Shambock, Franklin Graham, and countless others.

Most young modern preachers are heretics. Raised up to think secular instead of Biblical. I only listen to the experienced veterans, the ones who aren't secular.

+2 votes     reply to comment
TheObscure
TheObscure Apr 27 2015, 7:01pm replied:

This will be my final response to you now as doing more won't change anything and would be senseless.

As for your first paragraph, I agree with you that the bible can jump around, however, one should keep in mind of the texts that are standing prior to those without completely disregarding them. It is dangerous to bring separations of ideas/topics when speaking about verses, because it is then when actual Bible scripture changes into an assumption or argument.

Yes, I've read the book Revelations and I know what will happen during that time. The mark of the beast will cause Christians to be heavily persecuted and killed as martyrs.

As for the documentary, I said you should look at it with an open mind. Those guys in the documentary are quoting directly from the Bible every time and they keep what they are saying on par with the Bible. Do not look at the person presenting it, but listen to the word of God. Remember, we all are humans, and those people you have mentioned are just humans. It doesn't mean just because they are more popular with more followers, that they are better and more enlightened about the word of God than anyone else. You are now placing them on pedestals. We are all in Christ as his children.

That documentary along with many others prove a valid argument. I do hope that you will at least listen to it.

+2 votes     reply to comment
Aeon Disciple
Aeon Disciple Apr 27 2015, 7:09pm replied:

I agree with your point regarding topics.

That's one reason it makes more sense to me for the Rapture to be before the Tribulation, do you honestly believe God would want His people to go through that? Remember, the Tribulation is for Israel, it's about them being lead back to Christ. We already have Christ, so it's not for us it's for them.

Ive heard many other preachers make valid arguments in favor of the pre-tribulation rapture. Especially Jimmy Swaggart, he even wrote a book on it. Sometime I should get his points written down and send them too you, let you overlook them.

Do consider, some people have more listeners because God has anointed them for the job. And if it bears witness with your spirit, you should listen.

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