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Just my musings on attempting to perfect mind and body. Jesus is the Christ and the savior.

Posted by KnightofEquulei on Feb 25th, 2012

Greetings brothers and sisters. Surely I need not tell you the greatness of the Christ and his sacrifice and I surely do not need to tell you about how thankful we should be for Christ but this article is rather about others who have forgotten Christ and others who believe in Christ but yet continue to sin. I'm one of the later ones and though I try to be the best that I can be, I sometimes fail. Recently, I committed a grave sin and I was truly angry with myself and sorrowful. It was during this time that the sacrifice of Christ became clearer than ever before. It was during this time that I learnt how much Christ had done for me through his sacrifice. Through him, I could be forgiven. Through him, I could reach out to God. Though I felt abandoned at first, I knew that this was far from the truth.

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins." --- Colossians 2:13

I will never be perfect but I can try to be and through the sacrifice of Christ, I - along with you all - am saved. When the woman who had committed adultery was brought before Christ, he rebuked those who had told him to stone her and said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and he then told the woman to "Go and sin no more". Did the woman never sin again? Unlikely but it's probable - if she believed Jesus to be the Messiah - that she tried her best to avoid sin and repented and became sorrowful every time she did sin. Through the sacrifice of Christ, she would have been saved.

Through the sacrifice of Christ, we are all saved so long as we attempt to follow Christ's path which is the path of truth and righteousness.

Jesus is king and savior and I have declared this before many in life and will continue to do so until death. Only by his greatness can we be saved.

"And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him." - 1 John 4:16

It's a long journey to reach God but as long as I have spirit in my body, I shall not give up.

Remember in the first paragraph where I said that this article was also about people who have forgotten Christ? Many self-professed Christians have. I'd like to warn people of "Christians" who condemn people to Hell and threaten people with damnation if they refuse to believe their view on The Bible.

These men and women have become so twisted in hate that they have forgotten Christ altogether. These men and women condemn those who refuse to believe what their doctrine teaches and some of them even try to justify terrible sins based on Bible verses quoted out of context. These people have forgotten Christ because if they hadn't, they would remember these words:

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged." - Matthew 7:1

I've seen so many "Christian" sites which have so much hate on. These sites can't be inspired by God because a Christian is suppose to be kind and gentle when spreading the news.

"Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience."
- Colossians 3:12

"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." - Proverbs 15:1

I even encountered one site (Jesus is Savior.com) telling people that women should be slaves to men. The Bible actually says that a husband must seek to serve his wife as a wife must seek to serve her husband. In other words, they are both equal and both belong to one another. In Christ's words, they become one flesh.

"The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife."1 Corinthians 7:4

That same hate filled site went onto say that all women must marry a man or be doomed to Hell. Where the hell did the author get that nonsense from? Virgins - male or female - are blessed in The Bible. That site is filled with such hate and the nonsense that is spewed across it just makes me angry. The author seems to be a rather sad and unhealthy individual who is either so twisted and corrupted in hate that they have forgotten Christ's love or it's either an atheist's attempt at making Christianity look bad. Even if it was a satire site, this doesn't change the fact that many sites created by those claiming to be true genuine Christians exist.

We can only pray for such people because it's clear that they know not the way of the Lord. Hate is not going to lead people to God and when Jesus preached, his words were always kind and gentle and that's how our words should be when we preach the good news.

Post comment Comments
KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Feb 25 2012, 12:12pm says:

Seriously. God help us all. I've seen so many "Christian" sites promoting anti-christian garbage contrary to The Bible.

+4 votes     reply to comment
Uraikus
Uraikus Feb 25 2012, 2:51pm says:

Check Romans 14.
It's not about "our" theology, but it's about trying to be the best servant you can be for Jesus. These people I'm sure are doing what they think is right, and that's as any of us can do. None of us have all the right answers, that's why it's about continually seeking after God. In Romans 14, it says things like, "who are you to judge someone else's servant" and "So why do you condemn another believer? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand before the judgment seat of God." God is the Righteous judge, and it's to Him that we will stand before, we may not always be in step with each other. But God is the judge, and I believe He looks at the intentions of our heart's. All He wants is our dedication to Him. It's not about who we are now, but who we are trying to be for Jesus.

+2 votes     reply to comment
KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Feb 25 2012, 3:53pm replied:

That's what the later part of the article is trying to say. That site that I gave as an example condemns pretty much every sect and belief in Christianity other than its own. Said same site goes onto to curse Saint Nicodemus.

I don't care about the small details that a Christian has, it's about whether they believe in Jesus as the Messiah. Obviously they have to try to follow the commands of Christ but all the little details about the nature of Christ are irrelevant.

+3 votes     reply to comment
TLhikan
TLhikan Feb 25 2012, 6:33pm replied:

Irrelevant? Nothing the Bible teaches is irrelevant. The Bible says that All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for rebuking, teaching, training in righteousness. We are to teach the whole council of the word of God.

+1 vote     reply to comment
Uraikus
Uraikus Feb 25 2012, 7:22pm replied:

The core belief of Christianity is;
We are sinners, And Jesus is a most excellent savior.
If we accept Him. (I don't know if everyone believes with this line. But I believe it's a core part.)

They may be wrong, I don't know. But if we focus on trying to tear down someone elses belief. We start to destroy our own. We sacrifice the Bible over our own bias. The Pharisees knew more of the Bible then anyone else. And yet Jesus turned to the sinners, the gentiles, the prostitutes. He turned to the humble, the ones who would listen to Him.
We can criticize someone else's belief, or we can live by a example, and try to be the best we can be.
And we do that by digging into Gods word.
As for Nicodemus, I don't even know who that is.

+3 votes     reply to comment
TLhikan
TLhikan Feb 25 2012, 7:51pm replied:

So, when Bible says to contend earnestly for the Faith, to test everything, to hold fast to what it true, do we ignore it?

We don't tear down the Bible by not defending it, by saying what people believe about doesn't matter, but by teaching each and every precious word God has chosen to reveal to us, even the controversial ones.

And I will say: You are absolutely right: The core doctrines of Christianity is that all have sinned and that Jesus died to pay the price for that sin (I'm a Calvinist, so I don't believe that you can add a "if" to it). I also believe that no Christian who hears of, say, the Trinity, or the Deity of Christ could reject those if they are truly saved.

On a different note, how does one get to right these articles? I had a completely topic in mind for one.

+1 vote     reply to comment
Uraikus
Uraikus Feb 26 2012, 12:24am replied:

On the page summary, on the latest articles tab, there is a + symbol on the top right of the latest article window. When you point at it, it should say "Post Article". I agree with what you're saying. What we mean, or I do anyway, is that, people miss interpret the Bible all the time. Or maybe they read a verse, but not the context.
It's more about the "core" beliefs that everyone can agree on is what matters in the Bible. Like I believe Calvinist and non-Calvinist both go to heaven. Because that is not part of the main "Core" of Christianity.
But I do believe all the Bible is important as well. It's just...I don't know.... lot's of it is debated.

+3 votes     reply to comment
KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Feb 26 2012, 3:44am replied:

He went on a little farther and bowed with his face to the ground, praying, "My Father! If it is possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine." --- Matthew 26:39

Seriously. John may have thought Jesus was God but the words of Jesus say otherwise. It's the words of Jesus we should listen to, not the words of The Church.

Nicodemus was a Pharisee who had spoken to Jesus and believed him to be from God. He also defended him against other Pharisees. He later assisted Joseph of Arimathea in burying Jesus:

John 19:39-42

It was the Catholic Church who believed Jesus was God and what else do they do? They worship Mary, angels and saints. This is contrary to The Bible.

Here's what Jesus really said about God and himself:

I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one--as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me. --- John 17:21

In other words, we too will become like Jesus one day but we won't be God and we never will be. Saying otherwise is rather contradictory to Jesus and his words.

Voices.yahoo.com

+4 votes     reply to comment
KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Feb 26 2012, 3:30am replied:

But you see, there's no verse in The Bible saying Christ is God. God directly speaks to Jesus three times in his ministry:

(After the baptism of Jesus) And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." -- Matthew 3:17

(On the mountain after praying before crucifixion) And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen One; listen to him!” -- Luke 9:35

(Jesus directly conversing with God) Father, bring glory to your name." Then a voice spoke from heaven, saying, "I have already brought glory to my name, and I will do so again." --- John 12:28

Does this sound like the action of the God to you:

One day soon afterward Jesus went up on a mountain to pray, and he prayed to God all night. --- Luke 6:12

Now provide a good reason as to why God would pray to himself.

Paul himself believed that Christ was MADE by God:

For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ. --- 2 Corinthians 5:21

All the verses about being one in God are true. Christ is one with God but so are we:

But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. -- 1 Corinthians 6:17

But this is still irrelevant. Accepting Christ and doing good is all that matters. Faith without works is dead.

+3 votes     reply to comment
KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Feb 26 2012, 3:57am replied:

"I also believe that no Christian who hears of, say, the Trinity, or the Deity of Christ could reject those if they are truly saved."

This is an example of what the article was speaking about really. You can't say who is saved or not. Only God can. The thief was saved on the cross just by accepting Jesus as Messiah. The thief believed and repented and that is why he was saved.

Luke 23:32-43

Let's be logical. I don't think that the thief believed that Jesus was God but according to Jesus himself, the thief would be in Heaven with him regardless.

+3 votes     reply to comment
nveresdf
nveresdf Feb 26 2012, 8:49am replied:

After reading your words, it makes me think that you believe in some parts of the Bible while you deny others.

John 1:1
" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:14
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Those verses state that the Word (Jesus) was God himself. Later on, in the book of Acts, we read that Paul hears the voice of Jesus (Acts 9:5 - And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.). How can Jesus not be God? No man, as powerful as he might be, can do what Jesus did, only God can.

+2 votes     reply to comment
KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Feb 27 2012, 12:17pm replied:

@nveresdf

"After reading your words, it makes me think that you believe in some parts of the Bible while you deny others."

I'll use your own quote against you because you ignore my verses which are from the mouth of Jesus himself. Your verses are John's opinion. Other people also thought Jesus was Elijah reborn but that doesn't make it so.

Elijah summoned fire down from heaven and Elisha resurrected a child. Later, Elisha's bones resurrected a dead man.

So yes, humans have done what Jesus has done but with God's authority just as Jesus had God's authority.

+2 votes     reply to comment
KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Feb 27 2012, 12:24pm replied:

Further more, the disciples of Jesus raised people from the death.

Matthew 10:7-8

Now if Jesus was God, please give an explanation from scripture as to why he prayed to God and spoke with him three times.

Saying Jesus is God is basically saying that God prays and speaks to himself.

+2 votes     reply to comment
Ambient_Malice
Ambient_Malice Feb 26 2012, 7:02pm replied:

Well, the thief knew Jesus was the messiah. And Jesus had made clear he was God: "He who has seen me, has seen the Father."

+2 votes     reply to comment
KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Feb 27 2012, 12:26pm replied:

@Ambient_Malice

But I answered that in my post, Jesus and God are one in essence just as we are one with Jesus but you and I both know that we are not physically Jesus nor do we share his mind and conscience.

If you believe Jesus to be God, then you must also believe yourself to be Jesus himself. Remember, Paul said that God was in us all. If you believe in the trinity because of those few verses, then you must also believe that you yourself are God.

I don't see why those verses should have a different meaning from Jesus saying "I and dad are one". Paul is saying that we and God are one so what's the difference?

+3 votes     reply to comment
Uraikus
Uraikus Feb 26 2012, 9:37pm replied:

"For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.
So, my dear brothers and sisters, be strong and immovable. Always work enthusiastically for the Lord, for you know that nothing you do for the Lord is ever useless." - 1 Corinthians 15:56-58
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:23
"Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death?(As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”) No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us. And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love." - Romans 8:35-37
"For every child of God defeats this evil world, and we achieve this victory through our faith. And who can win this battle against the world? Only those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God." - 1 John 5:4-5

+3 votes     reply to comment
KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Feb 27 2012, 12:38pm replied:

Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? -- 1 Corinthians 3:16

God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. For “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ - Acts 17:27-28

So now Jesus and the ones he makes holy have the same Father. That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call them his brothers and sisters. -- Hebrews 2:11

If you believe Jesus is God, then Hebrews 2:11 means that we become God himself which in my opinion is just blasphemy. We cannot compare to God. If Jesus is calling us brother and sister, he cannot be God the Father.

+3 votes     reply to comment
KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Feb 27 2012, 12:41pm replied:

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" -- John 20:17

This raises massive concerns. If you believe Jesus is God, this verse means that God worships a god higher than himself.

This trinity idea of God The Father, The Son and The Spirit being one and the same isn't even mentioned in The Bible. The term "God the Son" was invented by the Church. It's not biblical and I only go on what's biblical.

+3 votes     reply to comment
nveresdf
nveresdf Feb 27 2012, 8:01pm replied:

John 8:54-58
Jesus answered, `If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who is glorifying me, of whom ye say that He is your God; and ye have not known Him, and I have known Him, and if I say that I have not known Him, I shall be like you -- speaking falsely; but I have known Him, and His word I keep; Abraham, your father, was glad that he might see my day; and he saw, and did rejoice.' The Jews, therefore, said unto him, `Thou art not yet fifty years old, and Abraham hast thou seen?' Jesus said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming -- I am;'

In the last verse (58), Jesus says "Before Abraham's coming -- I am". The Lord is explicitly saying he existed before Abraham, and uses the words "I am" pretty much like God used them to tell Moses who he was.

John 17:1 and 17:5
These things spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to the heaven, and said -- `Father, the hour hath come, glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee,

`And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee;

Now, Jesus prays to be glorified with the same glory he had before the world existed, and all of this confirms what John wrote in the first verse of his gospel, that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God.

+2 votes     reply to comment
KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Feb 28 2012, 9:25am replied:

Ummm, where did I say that Jesus didn't exist before the world? Most Arians believe Jesus was a divine being and so do I. You still haven't answered my questions though and the verses you quoted only state that the two are still separate in consciences.

+2 votes     reply to comment
nveresdf
nveresdf Feb 29 2012, 12:45pm replied:

Isaiah 9:1-2 and 6-7

As the former time made light The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, So the latter hath honoured the way of the sea, Beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations. The people who are walking in darkness Have seen a great light, Dwellers in a land of death-shade, Light hath shone upon them.

For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. To the increase of the princely power, And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom, To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age, The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts doth this.

In this prophecy, the Son of God is described as Mighty God, Father of Ethernity. So, everytime Jesus claimed to be the Messiah, the Savior and the Son of God, he was also claiming to be the Mighty God, the Father of Eternity, and by doing this, he was accused by the chiefs of the Jews of blasphemy, for he declared he was God.

+2 votes     reply to comment
KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Mar 3 2012, 8:36am replied:

Isaiah 9:6 makes no mention of God's name. When God is mentioned in The Old Testament, his name is used and it is often written as The LORD. Mighty God is actually El Gibbor which means "mighty God" and there were many people who had names which had an attribute of God in them.

Isaiah 9:6 is saying that Christ is mighty and god-like which I'm not denying.

Isaiah also says that the virgin will call her son Immanuel which means "God with us" but like the above verse, this is symbolic and Christ was called Jesus which really shows that verses in Isaiah have no literal meaning just like The Revelation isn't literal: The events are literal but the descriptions of beasts refer to men and nations.

Another Isaiah quote about Christ:

Isaiah 42:1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations."

This is God speaking directly about Christ once again The Bible seems to refer to the two as two different entities.

+2 votes     reply to comment
KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Mar 3 2012, 8:37am replied:

Conclusion:

I'm not sure what to believe about the nature of Jesus and God. Jesus says he's one with God but later we find him praying to God and saying we can become one with God too.

The essence of God is in Jesus though. The Holy Spirit is God's spirit and thus if you see Jesus, you'd be seeing God too but I also believe that this is the same for angels, after all, they are made from God too.

Not that the angels are equal with Christ. Even the archangels aren't equal.

I personally think that all filled with The Holy Spirit are one with God spirituality and I think that's what Christ was conveying when he was calling himself and dad as one.

Is Christ God because God's spirit is in him? Is not the spirit of God in us all? Perhaps Christ is God. Perhaps God is Christ but I don't think it's important. If the deity of Christ was important, Christ would have made sure through Paul that all knew that he (Christ) was God.

+2 votes     reply to comment
KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Mar 3 2012, 8:37am replied:

Major acceptance of the deity of Christ only came about 3 centuries after Christ. If you believe that salvation lays in accepting the deity of Christ, then thousands of Christians during those three centuries are unsaved.

No scriptural verse states that you must accept Christ as God. Scriptural verses states that for salvation, one must accept that Jesus was - and still is - the Christ and that he died for their sins. They must then repent.

Gospeloutreach.net

John 3:16-17

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Acts 16:30-31 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him.

The last verse states that by simply obeying Christ's words, you are saved. Christ told us to love God with all our heart. All Christians love God. Christ never said "you MUST believe I am God" or "you MUST worship me". If Christ is God and you love God and pray to God, you are praying to Jesus anyway.

Christian means "follower of Christ" and so long as you follow the words and command of Christ, you are Christian. Even if Christ did mean that he was God when he said "Before Abraham was I AM" he never said that all must believe this to be saved.

+2 votes     reply to comment
nveresdf
nveresdf Feb 29 2012, 12:56pm replied:

About the separate consciences, there's probably some sort of separation, since the Son doesn't know when he will come again, only the Father knows this.

+2 votes     reply to comment
Ambient_Malice
Ambient_Malice Feb 25 2012, 9:06pm says:

You just have to join the group. Then you can post media and articles.

+2 votes     reply to comment
ElfFriend
ElfFriend Feb 27 2012, 1:21am says:

Guys I recommend reading The Shack the author does a great job at portraying God.

+2 votes     reply to comment
Ambient_Malice
Ambient_Malice Feb 28 2012, 6:02am replied:

Having never read the Shack myself, I must reserve opinion. However, I have heard from reliable theologans that the Shack is heretical in its concept on God, Christ, and Salvation - the author believing that everyone goes to heaven.

www.squidoo.com/ShackHeresy - random blog criticising the book.

+2 votes     reply to comment
ElfFriend
ElfFriend Feb 28 2012, 7:25pm replied:

I must say I agree with you on that, I had a problem with that page myself...its only one page that I was desgusted by, otherwise the rest was good.

+2 votes     reply to comment
TLhikan
TLhikan Mar 1 2012, 8:34pm replied:

I would say that the whole book is heretical; Portraying God as female, endorsing modalism, endorsing tritheism, endorsing open theism, endorsing universalism... Just saying, there are much better sources of Biblical knowledge than The Shack.

Now, on to the Deity of Christ *rubs hands"

Knightguy: You make a few errors. First off, saying that when John says that The Word was God, that that was Johns own opinion. This demonstrates a lack of knowledge about the nature of Scripture; Jesus told his disciples that the Holy Spirit would reveal all things to them, putting his stamp of approval on everything the Apostles wrote. That goes for all of Paul's statements too.

Another couple of things you misunderstand: How Jesus could pray to the Father (touching on the Trinity), how we can be called Children of God (touching on our adoption) and what it means for God the Spirit to live in us.

You also misused the word "made" as in "God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us". As anyone who knows hermetics could tell you, made here means God made Jesus into a "sinner", not that he sinned, but that he bore the sins of the world on himself. It doesn't mean in either English or Greek that God created Jesus. That's not what the passage is talking about.

+2 votes     reply to comment
TLhikan
TLhikan Mar 1 2012, 8:35pm replied:

Jesus did his miracles by his own power; the prophets did them by God's power. Now, the Bible says plenty of times that Jesus was God, but if you want words from his own mouth:
Mar 2:7-11"Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, "Why do you question these things in your hearts?Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Rise, take up your bed and walk'? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--he said to the paralytic-- "I say to you, rise, pick up your bed, and go home."

See, the Pharisees where actually right; no one has the authority to forgive sins save God. Jesus never disagreed with that. But he forgave sins anyway.

Now, there are more direct passages: Jesus said "He who has seen me has seen the Father" and "I and the Father are one" and "Before Abraham was, I AM". And that last one made everybody in the immediate area fall over, either because they were so shock Jesus would claim the very name of God, or because Jesus saying that name was so powerful that no one could stand in it.

It is twisting God's word to say that the Bible doesn't claim Jesus is God. Christ's deity is perhaps the most important doctrine in the entire Bible.

+2 votes     reply to comment
KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Mar 3 2012, 7:53am replied:

None of these verses even have Jesus calling himself God. If Jesus was God, he would have said "I the God of your fathers who created all."

God is unchanging. Compare the words of Jesus to God's words and you can see that they are two different entities. Compare their actions and you can see that they are different entities.

Jesus says he is one with God. This is true but so are we and Jesus said so himself. What did Jesus mean by this? What am I misunderstanding?

The trinity is described as the mystery of Christianity because no Christian has ever described it with scriptural evidence.

The Trinity came about three hundred years after Christ. If it was so important to the core doctrine of the gospel, Christ would have made sure that Paul told everyone that he was God but even Paul - who never spoke in figures - never utters such words.

Christ was not made a sinner otherwise that destroys the sacrifice. He was sinless, pure and God's chosen and Holy One who had existed before the world and universe were born but he's not God.

The term "son of God" is used plenty of times in The Bible to describe the angels and even Adam himself. Jesus is called THE Son of God because he's is the son of God just as he is The Son of Man having come from Mary.

+2 votes     reply to comment
KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Mar 3 2012, 7:36am replied:

There were what? Hundreds of gospels created. The Church destroyed all but four. If your view is right, then the Gospel of Mary and Judas has Christ's stamp of approval too and if you say otherwise, you destroy your own argument.

You say I misundertsnad Jesus praying to God and also Jesus calling us The Children of God but you still can't answer why these things happened and were said.

The word "made" means created. This reminds me of another debate I had where theistic evolutionists were saying that Genesis use of the word "made" means forged or evolved. There's no sources supporting such.

+2 votes     reply to comment
TLhikan
TLhikan Mar 3 2012, 9:15am says:

What do you mean none of those verses claims Jesus was God? What else does "I and the Father are one" mean? Because despite what you keep claiming, the Bible doesn't teach any sort of pantheistic nonsense that says that we are all one with God.

Or what about "He who has seen me has seen the Father?"

Jesus is distinct from the Father, yes, but he is still God. God the Son (I'll get to that in a bit). And in is being, Jesus is unchanging, I'm not sure what you mean by that.

No, the Trinity is a mystery because while the Bible teaches it, it's somewhat difficult to explain to a human mind. I don't claim to have my head around it, but I know that it is true: There are three persons in the God head, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one God, the same in substance, equal in Power and Glory. How doe we know this?

Well, we know that there is one God. We know that God the Father is God. We know that Jesus is God (although you seem to have some trouble on that point). We also know that God the Holy Spirit is God (He is described as Holy, eternal, perfect, and speaking against him is blaspheme). We also know that these three are separate from each other. Therefore, the Trinity is a logical (but easily misunderstood) doctrine we can draw from this.

The Da Vinci Code argument that the Church fashioned it's own doctrines and destroyed all the books that didn't agree with them around 300 AD is both tired and faulty. The 66 existed and where known as Scripture fare before that, if memory serves, the earliest complete New Testament dates from c 180 AD. The Doctrines of the Church do not draw their nature from some council in the 300s, although the Roman Catholic church at large would become heretical before long.

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KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Mar 4 2012, 1:34pm replied:

Yes, The Bible does say we are one with God if we accept Christ:

Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one.
John 17:23

In all? So God is in us and thus we must be in him just like Jesus.

The Church did indeed fashion its own doctrines and it destroyed any gospel, document or book which disagreed with its doctrine and creed. After the Council of Nicea, Arainism was declared blasphemy and heresy. Previously, Arainism had had a strong following.

I leave you with one final verse:

In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. John 14:20.

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TLhikan
TLhikan Mar 3 2012, 9:17am says:

I don't see how you say that Paul didn't teach that Jesus was God; the first thing he said when he saw Jesus was "Who are you, LORD".

1 Timothy 3:16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

I think you misunderstood what it meant for Jesus to become a "sinner". Not that he ever sinned, because he was perfect (something no created being can be btw), but that in the eyes of God the Father, Jesus was all sin upon the cross.

The term "Son of God" is used plenty of times, true. We need to understand what makes those uses different than how Jesus was the Son of God.

Jesus was the only begotten (not created, begotten. It means he is the Son of God, God the Son, from eternity past, and is the firstborn legally, in that he inherits all from his Father, but the Scriptures make it clear he was not literally first born, because John 1 says he was eternal. More on that later) Son of God. However, by his sacrifice, we can be called Children of God by adoption. We are reckoned sons of God, even though we are born sons of the devil.

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KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Mar 4 2012, 1:36pm replied:

Paul actually called him Lord. Not God's name.

Now look up the meaning of begotten. You'll see Christ was created. Why would words have a different meaning in The Bible?

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TLhikan
TLhikan Mar 3 2012, 9:19am says:

The Son of Man doesn't just refer to Jesus' humanity; in Daniel, the titular prophet sees God like "a Son of Man", something that would instantly be remembered by his 1st century Jewish peers.

The reason that the 4 canonical Gospels are just that is that it can be demonstrated that they were actually written by who they/early church tradition says they were.

Jesus prayed to the Father, who is a separate person than he is.

But that passage isn't talking about Jesus' nonexistent creation, read it in context. Paul is talking about how God reconciled himself to us. The word "made" here in the original Greek fits better with appointed him to be sin. Furthermore, the sentence makes no sense if your translation is correct; If God literally created him to be sin, how could he have known no sin beforehand?

And I ask again: How did Jesus have the authority to forgive sins?

Some more: John said that the Word was with God and the Word was God, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Thomas called Jesus "My Lord and My God". If Jesus weren't God, it would have been sinful for him not to rebuke Thomas for saying this. But he didn't; he approved of what Thomas said because Thomas was right.

Again, Jesus claimed the divine "I AM" as himself.

One last one: Jesus said "No one is good except God alone", but never denied that he himself was good.

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KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Mar 4 2012, 1:38pm replied:

Jesus had the authority to forgive sins because it was given to him by God. Is this not explained to you in the gospel which states that God has given Jesus all authority?

Jesus however was not killed by his authority but rather by God's authority which once again differences them.

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KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Mar 4 2012, 1:39pm says:

What does the Psalms say about us?

Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you.

What did Jesus say in reply to those who accused him of saying that he was God?

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken.

John 10:36 how can you say to the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

Notice how his reply is denying what the Jews are accusing him of. He calls himself the Son of God. If he was God, why would he not admit it there and say "Aye, I am God as you say". Christ never feared the Jews in other occasions and they had tried to stone him previously and he had always escaped.

From this outcome, it's logical to conclude that Christ meant what he said otherwise you say that God fears man and lies.

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KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Mar 4 2012, 1:40pm replied:

John 10:38 But if I do his work, believe in the evidence of the miraculous works I have done, even if you don't believe me. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father."

The above verse is all what we agree on. This still isn't Jesus calling himself God. Would I say to myself that I and myself are one? Would a husband and wife say they are one with one another and form one entity? No, yet husband and wife become one in essence just as Jesus is one in essence with God just as we are one in essence with Jesus.

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?

Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

1 Timothy 2:5 For God is One, and The Mediator of God and the sons of men is One: The Son of Man, Yeshua The Messiah.

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Why is it that The Bible always refers to God and the Christ as two separate entities? We cannot explain this unity of God and man and how it works but we shouldn't come to conclusions and say "God is Jesus and Jesus is God and God is The Holy Spirit and The Holy Spirit is God and God is The Son of Man and The Son of Man is The Son of God and The Son of God is God The Father" because we can't understand the mysterious of God.

Man cannot understand God and man will never understand God. God is a divine being beyond our comprehension, beyond our flesh and beyond our universe.

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TLhikan
TLhikan Mar 7 2012, 9:45pm says:

Well, I am going to answer all of those points, but first I wish to know if you plan on addressing the rest of mine, because it would get confusing otherwise.

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KnightofEquulei
KnightofEquulei Mar 10 2012, 9:05pm replied:

Thanks for being an honorable debater. I've said my part though. I believe Thomas calling Jesus "My Lord and My God" is the view of Thomas. Whether Jesus rebuked him or not is not shown. Others also believed Jesus was Elijah reborn - at least that's what the disciples told him - or some other prophet and Jesus is never recorded announcing to a crowd that such statements were wrong but it doesn't mean he never dead.

When Jesus was trailed and Pilate asked him "What is truth?" Notice how the text skips a reply from Jesus. Either Jesus said nothing or the text was missing as is the case with gospels outside of the Bible.

If Jesus was God, I don't see why he would refer to himself as the Son of God or Son of Man. If Jesus was preaching the trinity along with Paul, wouldn't both have used God The Son? Such is the invention of the Church later on and while there is scriptural evidence which seemingly states that Jesus is God, there's also scriptural evidence stating the contrary. Therefore, I think the divine's definition of "being one with God" is different from ours.

Why I state my view as fact, I'm not certain. As I said above, it's possible Jesus could be God but again, I think that this is irrelevant to the core aspect of Christianity which is simply accepting the one known as Jesus as Savior.

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TLhikan
TLhikan Mar 13 2012, 7:54pm says:

Well, I for one believe that we are to trust the whole council of God's word, including passages like John 1.

And while their are a whole ton of verses that bring up questions as to what Jesus meant by them, the full Bible in arguably states that Jesus is God.

For Jesus to be the Savior, he had to be God. When Isaiah predicted the coming of the Messiah, he said "And he shall be called: Wonderful Councilor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." The child to be born would be God, and that's as simple as that.

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