Christians of Moddb
Hobbies & Interests
This group is exactly what the name implies. A group for people who are Christians. If you're a Christian then please join us. We're a place on ModDB for Christians to gather and talk. It's as simple as that.
An Old Dream made Anew.
(view original)
Post a comment
Description
Is it truly just an American Dream, or a dream for all?
I look at today's world, and see such a difference in the definition of right and wrong. There used to be a time loyalty and honor meant something. There used to be a time faith was all that mattered. Things have never been perfect down here, but believe me, people did try. Even if they found themselves on the wrong side of things, they knew there was a way to live life that was Godly and righteous. A way to make a better life for themselves.
For people like in the United States this was often referred to as the American Dream. A virtuous family, a good home often in suburbia, and a life spent in honest work. And in that dream they were happy. Back when the nation was still under God's firm grip.
Unfortunately though in today's world such values are mocked and denigrated. A virtuous one is looked at as a public enemy to the people. There is no longer respect in the lands for the this dream. But now that I think about it, this isn't just the American Dream. It's all our dreams. It's every human beings right. To have that sense of safety and security. With their family, and their home. As well as that sense of peace in following Godly values.
But the only way that dream comes to reality is following the Word in the Book, the Bible. That's were the American Dream was inspired. And that's were it's roots originate. Not just a democratic and capitalist culture. But the Word of God.
It says in the Book that in the last days men shall view good as evil and evil as good. This is true. And now for what we believe we are the enemy. But they forget, it all depends on your point of view. To us, they are the wrong ones. Those of us who believe in this dream aren't nearly as many as we used to be. But even though were small, were still strong. Cause were trusting in the Lord, and he's our strength. Were the Enclave, the Remnant. And someday, this dream will be fully restored for ALL to benefit. Just read the Book. God Bless the Enclave.
Corporations and banks rule this dreadful world. You're a mere economic unit used by politicians and influential people. You sustain a system that devours people. This is our democracy; hard labor or death. It's how it works nowadays.
Ordinary, poor people are at each other's throats, they compete with each other to earn extra cash or to even get a job in the first place. Some people barely scrape by, while others live like kings. For one winner there are ten losers.
As for spirituality. It's your personal experience that nobody can take away from you. Your hope and faith are not enough to have a nice social life though. Sometimes it's even an obstacle, cos' there's an increasing number of people that doesn't believe in anything anymore. Imagine a person mentioning Jesus' name numerous times every week. Nearly all people don't want to hear about God and Bible on a daily basis, cos' it's awkward and old-fashioned, at least that's how it is seen now.
Yes. Anyone may read some divine books, but they won't help you with your bills. It seems this omnipotent entity solves all your issues once you're dead, but while you're alive you're on your own. Sorry, this is how it works.
Just as the Book said, evil viewed as good, good viewed as evil.
There's nothing awkward about hearing about God and the Bible everyday. I'd prefer it to seeing people starving, in poverty, and suffering. And you need to stop giving these corrupt governments so much attention. This dream was never about them. It was about the people. Besides, the only government that can truly accommodate this dream is God's. But even without the government's support, following these old values you can still get far in life and be successful. They may be ancient paths, but they still work for those who tread them.
Just because something is viewed as old doesn't mean it doesn't work. It's a fact suicide rates among those who followed these "old" values were much lower than today's people. It's a fact that these "old" values promoted good work ethics and people were able to rise above their current situation. It's a fact these "old" values made people actual respectable human beings. People who followed these values actually had peace in their lives unlike today's lost and corrupted society you were born into. Wouldn't you love to have been born into a family that was hard working, provided for, and loved you? It's something we all want, even if we won't admit at times.
Actually if you spent the time you'd learn God does help people in their daily life. There have been times we needed the bills paid and God got us through. And I'm sure there have been situations here that many aren't telling as of yet. We do have our own little miracles in life day to day you know. And I have little doubt God plays a hand in it.
My point is, this dream the current society today despises is alive and well. And can, and will be brought back for all. It's simply a matter to "believe".
Economy...
American dream in a nutshell - Youtube.com
Your taking one man's political opinion and applying it to an entire way of life. Guy isn't even a Christian, so automatically I know he could never understand.
The American Dream for the Christian is a people that are hard working, follow the Lord, and are virtuous. And because of that they can get ahead in life where others couldn't. Coming home to a wonderful family and good home is nothing to be ashamed of. And the Bible is what makes those things possible because it promotes what can make that happen. The reason this dream no longer applies in my country is for two reasons.
1. Socialism is embraced and not democracy by today's politicians and they've ditched hard work ethics for social programs.
2. The media and Hollywood endorses immorality and degeneracy over this "dream" of ours. And have abandoned Christianity and the Bible.
The American Dream isn't just for America, it's for the whole human race. If you think people are going to be stuck in the slums and poor and hopeless the rest of their lives you've got another thing coming. The tables will turn in time. But until than patience, and a good resolve means everything.
Despite what you may think, there are still those out there who believe in this dream. And are determined to see it return. You can either be for that or against it. But you and I both know, the way this world is going, if something isn't done soon, the whole thing isn't going to end well for anyone. And I believe we have an obligation to stop and delay that anyway we can until God makes his move.
So until the Lord himself tells me otherwise, I'm going to fight for, and see to it, that this dream isn't forgotten and abandoned. Can't speak for everyone else but that's me, Joshua.
The idea of the American Dream was based off the principle of equal opportunity for those with the skill, determination and wits. Problem is, it's been corrupted. Corporations and major businesses now have the "freedom" to engage in bribery, the "freedom" to smash all competition that smaller businesses offer, and the "freedom" to have a nation's economy in their grasp. While that's absolutely great for corporations and the upper class citizens, it really kinda sucks for the working class who work just as much as before, but receive less in return.
That's actually how the whole idea of socialism was born: curb the power of corporations and major businesses by allowing the government to take more control over the economic sector. As horrifying as the idea of the social welfare programs seem to those who are rich enough to not need it, it's a pretty big relief for the working class that actually does gain a lot from it.
Secondly, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "socialism is embraced and not democracy". Socialism is a form of civil and economic administration, while democracy is a form of legislation. Neither of these categories have anything to do with one another, it's like comparing apples to chicken soup.
While I understand that you are very passionate about your faith, I would advise you to not let your theology get mixed up with your political leanings. Morality is not something that can be defined in terms of "conservative" or "liberal", you'll find good people and bad people wherever you are.
Usually I try to avoid political discussions so I get lazy with the terms. In this case by Democracy I mean a more equal capitalistic system, preferably smaller government. You are right though, the dream and system has been corrupted by corporates and dishonest politicians.
The problem with social and welfare programs is people become dependent on it and eventually become unable to build themselves up because they have no motivation. They are mooching off the government to survive and bleeding the country dry.
Programs like social security, I understand. Cause you worked most your life and that work was payed into social security for you. So it's like a repayment in your later years (when you retire) for your hard work.
Welfare I don't really care for. The majority of people who get it never get off it and simply have more kids to get more welfare. They turn themselves into parasites rather than contributing citizens.
Socialistic policies are basically a precursor to Communism. Because it's a economic system practiced by communist nations. It's not communism, but it's what commies typically use. But honestly I do despise Communism. As well as it's economic system. Leads to nothing but gangster governments and bankrupt societies. Well, now I sound like a typical American back in the 60's. Red Scare syndrome. It would be funny if it wasn't true. Some communist nations do practice other forms of economics now like Capitalism, but in an unregulated form that gives corporations way more muscle and influence that would be reasonable. And then the people pay the price.
I try not to get politics in the mix. But sometimes it's necessary to make points like these. Although I must admit, it's good to talk political every now and then. Keeps you up with the times and you learn something new from time to time.
Socialism works excellently in collectivist cultures, where the success of the whole is considered primary. Some excellent examples of a stable, prosperous socialist government are Denmark, Singapore, and Taiwan. Both societies are small enough to allow for standardized, equal division varying by occupation and service record, which also allows the government to focus more on the civic and technological sectors.
However, one of the biggest pitfalls of socialism is the possibility of labor disparity, such as in the examples you mentioned. When one group has to support all the others simply because of their financial status, the other groups lose all incentive to maintain quality and competition. This problem is especially noticeable in very large societies, or in areas with inefficient civic bureaucracy.
Capitalism, on the other hand, works great in large societies with a lot of well-to-do consumers that have the resources to buy or sell. An excellent example of prosperous capitalist societies are the US during the Reagan era, or China right now. In both of these situations, there was ample opportunity for private businesses to be able to forge their own way while both contributing to society and reaping the benefits.
The main problem with capitalism is that if one economic group becomes more powerful than the rest, that group will get richer at the cost of everyone else. Unlike in a socialist society, where even the most competitive of businesses will expand or collapse at a relatively identical rate, the slightest competition can spell the downfall of a capitalist business. In a capitalist society, competition is not so much a means to ensure quality as it a threat to their very existence.
In the long run, it's evident that both economic models have their strengths and their weaknesses, and each can be abused in terrible ways. The key is to find which model works best in the given nation or society.
Capitalism does work best for large societies. But it could also work just as well in small ones. The challenge is ensuring businesses don't monopolize it. Which requires keeping an eye open for corruption and aggressive corporate expansionism.
Socialism is a crony government kind of economic system that requires people's conformity to the governments wishes for it to work. That's not freedom, that's tyranny. It only works if you comply to the governments wishes and literally let them do whatever they want with your life, being a "model citizen". Under a true socialist state, all assets, including your belongings are property of the state and they can expend it how they see fit. Besides, the majority of nations that have utilized socialism have experienced nothing but deep division between the classes and social unrest. I know for a fact most of Europe has.
Another issue with Socialism is over regulation economically which kills the middle class. Cause it bleeds dry small businesses. They also divert more funds to planning than actually producing. At least in Capitalism one focuses on getting stuff done, even if it is for profit.
And to imagine Obama promised change for my country... The more I think about it the more I realize how foolish it all is. In one way or another like you said, every system has it's faults. Some worse than others. And no matter what we do, were screwed over either way. I hear people get up on their soapboxes and go on their political crusades only to realize they are completely full of crap. Pardon my French, but that's just the way I see it.
Bible never said anything about the world being a fair and stable place. And any attempts to make it that always blow up in our face. It's hilarious honestly. Were mankind, master's of the air, land, and sea. Can invent the most complex of devices and creations and yet we still can't figure out the right way to live. Guess were gonna have to wait till God comes down and sorts this all out.
Uh...no. Not even communism is that extreme, and I live in China for crying out loud. A good example of a socialist country is Denmark or Norway. Both countries are renowned worldwide for their high standard of living, their freedom of expression, and their excellent education. Of course, there's also high taxes, but you get out of society what you put into it.
Again...you're referring to the worst case scenarios of left-wing ideology gone wrong. That only happened in a handful of the nations which adopted a socialist economic model (Soviet Union at various periods, China during the 60's and 70's, North Korea, Cambodia, etc). There are plenty of socialist-orientated governments that have a better standard of living and quality of life than the US ever did.
Unless you have some facts to back up the statement that socialist governments as a whole are that way, I'm going to assume that's simply your opinion. I have nothing against opinions.
As for this one...uh, where are you getting your facts from? Many countries in Europe have a much lower rate of income disparity than the US. Heck, South Korea has a lower rate of income disparity than the US. Last I remembered, Europe wasn't the place where university students have an average debt of $30,000.
Universesandbox.com
There's some facts for you to consider.
The countries you referred to as being successful socialist states have their own problems too whether they be rights violations os simple lack of responsibility. Here's one example, Denmark. They are so "dependent" on welfare that their unemployment is growing by the day.
Theobjectivestandard.com
The finincial benefits of socialism are clear, but the work ethics are disgracful. It's a system that rewards for doing "nothing". And that's the most shameful thing about it of all.
Why are you advocating for a system that encourages big government taking care of everything and stopping citizens from learning self reliance? What good does a "free" high quality education do you if you have no motivation to use it? What good does free healthcare do you if your just sitting home watching tv all day?
You've overlooked the most disturbing aspect of this system. It's a system for freeloaders and degenerates. What is the government going to do when they have a country that is to lazy to work and is dependent on them? Consider this before continuing the conversation. If the government ever falls, so will the people, because they never learned to care for themselves.
Europe is already on it's own economic collapse and is trying to find a way out. Your dodging the issue and blaming the U.S. to escape the point.
The U.S. has the best standard of living in the world. You never lived here. You never knew what it was to step outside in a country you could say your mind and not be shot for it. We were and still are the best country in the world for this reason. In God We Trust. And we believe in peace, freedom, and justice for all. These are still standards that many people do hold to here. Which is something the media constantly forgets to mention.
And for the record, the reason were in the economic rut were in is because those like you who believed socialism was even an option came marching in. And there went our economy, right out the window. Ever since Obama came to office with these new policies our debt has more than tripled what it was than all other U.S. presidents debt COMBINED.
So if it's not parasites socialism brings, than it's enormous debt. And at some point the lack of hard work will catch up with them, and you'll see, like the rest of the world. You don't work, than no reward, just suffering.
It's one of the reasons I know God doesn't agree with socialism. He promotes a society that is competitive and hard working. Constantly looking to lead the way. That's how it's done. And it's how the United States played for a long time back in it's day. And that's one reason why I still say "God Bless America." Cause there are still people here who follow these old principles. There are still loyalists.
Summed up, I can't advocate the system your defending and I won't. So if I were you I'd consider dropping the subject now and saving us both the trouble. I wonder if anyone is following these posts so far... Looks like were writing a book.
I have nothing to say other than the following words of advice.
1. If you're trying to find reliable information about socialism, I wouldn't take it from a website about capitalism if I were you. This has nothing to do with my personal distrust of capitalism. If I wanted to really find out for myself the state of the American economy, I wouldn't read an Indian newspaper to try finding reliable information. Why? Well...because they're in a different situation, it's highly likely that they can't understand the situation well. Likewise, if you're trying to find reliable information about socialism, I'd suggest talking to people who's lives are affected by it.
2. I would also advise you to not let personal opinion affect your judgement. You say that "The U.S. has the best standard of living in the world". Well, have you considered that someone from France, Germany, Thailand, or Canada will most likely say the same thing? It's human nature to believe one's own group, stance, or opinion is automatically correct, and habits like that can take years to break.
3. Lastly, I would be very careful about making assumptions regarding what is God's will. The Catholic Church once said it was "God's will" that anyone who disagreed with their ideology was a heretic deserving of death. Today, there are extremists in the Middle East who say it is "God's will" that they commit mass murder. There's pedophile priests who say it's "God's will" that they be allowed to molest and rape children in their care. My point is, many Christians today (especially in America) tend to assume that God supports their nation above all others, and that somehow they're oh so special. While it's always nice to feel unique, the result of such behavior is a dangerously blend of theology and nationalism...neither of which should be anywhere near each other.
In my opinion, it's like trying to stick a live electrical wire in a tub of water. Neither the wire or the water are bad on their own; on the contrary, they're actually quite essential. The danger comes when you combine the wrong parts under the wrong circumstances.
As much as I enjoy these kinds of conversations, others might find it somewhat odd if the moderators themselves are debating endlessly. It's quite clear that neither of us will be changing our opinions anytime soon, so I'd say the best we can do is live and let live.
I gave sources, I gave points on socialism. There were true statements in there, probably more than you admit. But hey, your opinion.
God has nations he uses at times for his purposes. The United States was one of those nations. And because of it more than half the globe hates us, yet we've done much for the Kingdom of God. In fact were the leading nation in the world send missionaries to evangelize. And support Israel when they most needed help since their formation.
Perhaps that's why God allowed my country to exist, to help advance the plan. Israel became a nation again because the United Nations (which we helped create) and were the main nation in World War II to lead the way against the Nazis, Communists, and now Muslims. Which are factions that desired the destruction of that country and people. All that for Israel one asks? Heh, you have no idea. When God gives protection, it's quality. But now time is counting down and our purpose is almost fulfilled. The events described in the Bible for the last days are happening now. Soon Israel will be on her own save for the Lord, and then the Grand Finale.
No nation on this Earth has ever had as many rights as the United States. Part of that is because of our Christian heritage and belief in equality. Which is why I said what I said.
God's will has no loyalty to any particular nation or ideology because he's his own. The exception being Israel, because he made a promise with them. He does show favor to those who follow his Word though.
Matthew 24:14
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."
It's after that that in Revelation one learns the heavens and the Earth will be remade. Nothing will be left of the old Earth Empires. Which is a good thing, because I honestly don't want to remember.
Then will there be peace, then there will be justice. But what is justice?
...
It's a feeling that goes well beyond any mere words.
That's your perspective on Socialism than so be it. I'm just pointing out like even you said, there are flaws to the system. Some more severe than your admitting.
Pretty much. I do enjoy the conversations like these, learn something and keeps me at the ready.
Bah, to heck with of 'em, Byzantinism's the way to go. :)