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Is it really a 5th gen?
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Now we all know the amount of controversy around this aircraft, and I think I'm going to stir up some healthy debate with it. I know there really isn't any info to go on aside from its physical appearance but speculation (albeit calculated) is always welcome.
My personal opinion is that it certainly shares a bunch of 5th gen aspects with its cousins (eg. especially intakes and nose with F-22 etc.)
The delta wing and forward canards are an interesting touch and I don't know what it exactly does for the stealth signature of the aircraft.
It would seem it presents more of a multirole design rather than focusing on a single specific attribute and in this way harkens more to the PAK FA.
I can't really speculate on payload.
Cosmetically this thing is totally badass.
I doubt it honestly since China is you know..China..
But that being said it is the coolest looking new fighter by far!
Is it a 5th gen: Nope. Not yet.
Is it going to be 5th gen: Most likely. If can can't make the technology themselves they can easily buy it either from Russia or 'murica. After all, they have the most important thing: Money.
*If they can't.
Sometimes I really hate this 5 minute limit.
Yeeaaaahhhh...I feel you on the 5 minute limit thing.
by the time they develop the avionics and radar, Russia and the US will probably have a 6th gen o the flight line (assuming of course that the f-35 hasn't absorbed all the R/D in the whole world by then)
Or hack the technology. Anyway even with unlimited funds (or near enough anyway) you can still make a horrendous joke of an aircraft. *Looks at US DoD*
Or you could be on a tight budget but have loyal defence contractors and make a gem of an aircraft. *Looks at Sukhoi*
Plus since we all know that China has bought those Su-35BMs, perhaps it's just matter of time until they reverse engineer the engines and then put it into the next prototype of J-20.
I really don't know how much of an Su-35 it will be when they (or if they) export it to China. If the jet is as good as people are saying it is (research would seem to agree) then I highly doubt the China export version will have the same sort of capabilities. Russia isn't likely to so easily forget the Su-27 debacle.
in my opinion it's a 4++ generation airfcraft
The only thing that stops a 4++ gen from being 5th gen is lack of stealthy profile. And this plane is structure wise quite stealthy. And RAM for the most part isn't really a classified technology nowadays.
In other words, if its avionics and radar is equivalent of that of a 4++ gen fighter, it will effectively become a 5th gen.
no TVC
True dat. But you know how it is, apparently being more capable in BVR combat (and sacrificing everything in the process) is far more important than ever having the slightest afforded means to hold ground in a dogfight. Or you could just have an Su-35.
Sounds very familiar actually....
I think we should add a "Yet" in case of TVC. After all even the Firefox didn't had hers yet.
All of this speculation and stereotyping is pointless and baseless. The PLAAF, like any competent air force, would not be backing a program it has no faith in. CAC is a capable developer that has already demonstrated its abilities going from 3rd-gen Mig-21s to JF-17 to 4th-gen+ J-10Bs in mere 2 decades. Does China, with the second largest military expenditure in the world both in absolute terms and adjusted for PPP, lack the resources, the manpower, or the funds to seriously develop a 5th gen fighter? Why would any institution spend years and millions developing secret prototypes without a viable goal in mind? Surely not just to leak kewl photos for you internet armchair aviation experts...
Armchair eh?
Do you know most of China's Aviation tech is Reversed engineered?
They don't invent they copy. No one is saying this plane is bad they are saying if it will be a 4th or 5th gen Fighter.
You said
"Why would any institution spend years and millions developing secret prototypes without a viable goal in mind?"
While I don't think this is the case for China, many contracts for other aircraft are developed for Political or monetary reasons. Sometimes the inferior product wins the day or an unnecessary system wins the day ((see F-35))..
I could go into it more but I don't feel like it atm because their is no point..
But next time you want to take a Potshot at me learn your facts, and listen to what people are saying before you assume things.
First of all, my comment was not addressed at you.
Possible fifth gen requirements:
1. Short take off
2. Super cruise
3. Stealth
4. Super maneuverability
Also possibly:
5. Advanced avionics
6. Multirole capability
7. Advanced networking.
Which one of these requirements has the J-20 clearly failed to demonstrate? This thread will not be a genuine discussion until these points are addressed with evidence backing it. Common grievances raised against the J-20:
- "Canards are not stealthy." Think of Canards as tailplanes in the front of the aircraft. I am not a specialist, so I differ to this report from Air Power Australia (which agrees with you on the inferiority of F-35) which argues that J-20 has excellent forward-aspect stealth: Ausairpower.net
- "J-20 doesn't have good avionics." I don't think anyone can make any conclusive assessments from just photos. However, from little of what we know. J-20's nose is shaped for AESA, it has EODAS, and possibly have MAWS and IRST. It also features glass cockpit, holographic HUD, Latest prototype also shows EOTS.
- "J-20 isn't maneuverable because it is big." It is about the same size as a flanker.
"Do you know most of China's Aviation tech is Reversed engineered?"
Does this even matter for this discussion? Never mind that, while you can claim that SAC is only good at reverse engineering with their Flanker derivatives. Can you seriously deny the progress CAC has made on their indigenous aircraft development?
Let's just address the common insinuations against CAC that comes up:
- "J-10 is a copy of the Lavi (or substitute any other delta canard)." Whether or not CAC received technical assistance from Israel, the J-10 is a clear continuation of the J-9, which is a delta canard fighter from 70s that got cancelled in favor of the J-8.
- "J-20 stealth is reverse engineered from F-117 shot down in Serbia." Yea, but official Chinese sources have already stated that F-117 stealth is outdated by the time it was shot down, and J-20 uses different technology.
- J-20 is a copy of the F-22/F-35. Even with the espionage allegations floating around. The fact is these aircrafts have different basic planforms. Delta wing vs Trapezoidal wing. Canards vs tailplane. The rest, angled fuselage, canted fail fins, frame-less canopy, internal weapon bays, are common stealth features. If stealth shaping has to be unique, then Japanese STD-X, Korean KF-X, and Indian AMCA concepts are all copies??!
Without resorting to stereotyping Chinese scientists and engineers as brainwashed red communist drones with zero ability for invention and innovation, can anyone seriously doubt that the Chinese military industrial complex, spending twice as much money as the Russians can only come up with something after cutting corners and stealing tech?
I am just sick and tired of people (not you) on these internets who browse pictures of a non-western technology and say it is a copy/cross/love child of their favorite jet just because it has some stupidly common design features like *canards*, *LERX*, or *DSI* or that they are worthless without listing any actual evidence because of some stupid stereotype about some country or ideology.
AH ok sorry then I stand Corrected and I apoligize.
Yes your points are very valid since you explained where you are coming from.
I'll make this very short and sweet since my time is limited atm your response was spot on. I really can not argue with it because I agree and feel the same way with most of what your saying.
I just thought you were directing at me ((sry habit things like that happened to me before)) and frankly most don't even know much about this plane. Just like PAK-FA it is still nowhere near finished it's Development phase or testing phase.
As far as the coping their is a difference between stealing Tech ((which the Chinese do do no denying that)) or having assistance from other countries Such as, France the USA or Russia in the case of other programs. That being said the Chinese don't steal EVERYTHING and of course would have their own RnD and make things to their own specification. Also other countries have stole and copied from each other as well Just look at the US and Russia during the Cold War! So no China is not alone.
"I am just sick and tired of people (not you) on these internets who browse pictures of a non-western technology and say it is a copy/cross/love child of their favorite jet just because it has some stupidly common design features like *canards*, *LERX*, or *DSI* or that they are worthless without listing any actual evidence because of some stupid stereotype about some country or ideology. "
Thank you!! I feel the same way so many people talk out their rear and let Bias for whatever reason make their decision.
Excellent post I'll up Karma you.
I just don't want you to think I am one of "those types"