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Squad Commands (Games : Vector Thrust : Forum : Suggestion Box : Squad Commands) Locked
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Koeben
Koeben Ground Pounder
Dec 12 2013 Anchor

I apologize if this has already been discussed. I did a very quick skim in the suggestion box and did not find any threads with the key words "Squad commands"

Anyways,

I was just wondering if there are any plans to implement a squadron or wingman command system similar to the ace combat 5, zero, 6, etc.

The game may be too late into development for this but the ability for wingmen to have stats that can be improved could be a nice touch too.

Dec 12 2013 Anchor

Actually squad commands was already planned and it will begin development exactly at this moment, so if anyone has any suggestion it still possible to be addressed if it is posted in the next 24 hours.
This will be the last gameplay feature to be implemented for the release, after this I can finally start polishing the game.

Here is the mockup of how it will look the command menu. (don’t mind the rest of the HUD)

Dec 12 2013 Anchor

Reminds me a lot of the FreeSpace communications interface. How is it currently used? In FreeSpace games, it was used by pressing 'C' and a number of 1 - 0 any number of times necessary (Usually two to three times, one to select units, a second to select specific units; optional, and a third to state the action) to give an order.

Given the number of commands shown here, it would probably be best used in a similar fashion. I think using arrow keys or a D-pad would make the process take longer.

Also, hell yes F-14.

Edited by: SpootKnight

Dec 12 2013 Anchor

Yes, it can be controlled by the numbers, but it will also be possible use arrows for players that use a controller.
I didn’t knew that FreeSpace used similar system; actually I used Unreal Tournament as a reference to make this menu.

Also, that aircraft in fact the Super Tomcat 21, although it's not really noticeable from behind.

Edited by: timeSymmetry

Dec 12 2013 Anchor

Yeah, when you first press 'C,' you have the first menu where you select the unit you want to issue an order to. The options are single unit, wing (flight), or all allies. There is also a selection for calling in reinforcement wings.

When you pick a unit, if it's an individual or wing, you pick which unit or wing you want to send the order to.

After this, or if you selected all allies, you get the menu where you decide what they will do. Orders such as destroy target, disable, disarm, protect, cover self, etc, are in this menu.

Although since you mentioned it, I can see the similarity to the UT ordering system.

Edited by: SpootKnight

Dec 12 2013 Anchor

Buffering keys generally is the best way to handle quick orders. Wing Commander Saga, I'unno much about the actual Wing Commander games given that they were long before my time as a gamer, makes excellent use of this. Alt+E marks your current target as an escort, giving you information on their HP, while Shift+A tells your wing to attack your target, Shift+S the current subsystem you're targeting, so on and so forth. Using a similar system may be able to trim down the command menu significantly.

The important thing about using buffered controls is keeping them all in the same general area for the K+M, and on a gamepad, keeping it so that no one is having to, for example, press a face button assigned to jump while keeping a finger on the trigger and their thumb on the joystick. Not much pre-planning can be done here, except for catering to the X360/Dualshock style gamepad, since it's kind of up to players, but being able to map buffered controls would certainly give the game a major edge in the sort of things that define PC game.

Another trick to keep in mind that's especially useful is if a hold - release counts as two inputs; one for the initial press and then again on release, just a trick to keep in mind for gamepads that isn't thought of as often as it should. It's useful for anything from stick clicks/L3/R3 like Halo's scopes to some quick menu stuff where you have a button that needs to do things, but it's better if they can be done in one press.

timeSymmetry wrote:
This will be the last gameplay feature to be implemented for the release, after this I can finally start polishing the game.


I can't wait to pick the game up as a preorder or otherwise. :D

Dec 12 2013 Anchor

Boogie_Van wrote: Buffering keys generally is the best way to handle quick orders. Wing Commander Saga, I'unno much about the actual Wing Commander games given that they were long before my time as a gamer, makes excellent use of this. Alt+E marks your current target as an escort, giving you information on their HP, while Shift+A tells your wing to attack your target, Shift+S the current subsystem you're targeting, so on and so forth. Using a similar system may be able to trim down the command menu significantly.


That actually stems from the FreeSpace command interface, as WCS is using the same engine.

Actual Wing Commander games, as I recall, were considerably more simple in the number of commands used, usually being 'C' to bring up the list of commands and giving you the option to speak to your wingman (1) or the enemy (2).

Selecting the wingman gives you '1' to engage your target, '2' to maintain / lift radio silence, '3' to return to base, and '4' to stay on your wing or engage at will. The same keys would become taunts if the enemy was selected.

Edited by: SpootKnight

IbizenThoth
IbizenThoth Gun-crazy
Dec 12 2013 Anchor

I guess my first question is whether or not the "Defend Area" order will be indicated on the radar or not.

Second is how we'll be using the "Aircraft" sub menu. Though I think it would probably be more trouble than it's worth, as far as development goes, having your WSO control countermeasures automatically and giving him commands on how to use them through the aircraft menu would be interesting.

MyHatismyFriend
MyHatismyFriend Synchronized Drowning Expert
Dec 12 2013 Anchor

Will mechanics like landing etc. still be developed after the game is released?

Nergal01
Nergal01 I stopped supporting Vector Thrust. AMA.
Dec 12 2013 Anchor

SpootKnight wrote: Reminds me a lot of the FreeSpace communications interface.

More like UT voice menu tab I think.

Or perhaps I played too much UT lately....Hey, we need 'taunt' command too! You can't imagine how effective it was in Wing Commander series!

Will mechanics like landing etc. still be developed after the game is released?

I recall someone asked about landing etc on the Facebook page and they said it will be implemented post-release, so.....

--

anon wrote:

There are only two things in this world worse than Vector Thrust; Star Citizen and No Man's Sky

'anon' wrote: Now I shall use this 'Vector Thrust Threshold' to measure how awful your product is

IbizenThoth
IbizenThoth Gun-crazy
Dec 12 2013 Anchor

It also makes me wonder, if an AI is of higher rank than you, could they dynamically set missions for you in the same way you are allowed to set missions? It would certainly be interesting, for example, if you received additional points for following an order given to you by home base, with the orders varying every time a mission is played. It'd sorta be like being a hero unit in an RTS game played by AI.

Nergal01
Nergal01 I stopped supporting Vector Thrust. AMA.
Dec 12 2013 Anchor

IbizenThoth wrote: It also makes me wonder, if an AI is of higher rank than you, could they dynamically set missions for you in the same way you are allowed to set missions? It would certainly be interesting, for example, if you received additional points for following an order given to you by home base, with the orders varying every time a mission is played. It'd sorta be like being a hero unit in an RTS game played by AI.


It should be more like Battlefield 2 if you play a squad member/leader. You get bonus points for completing orders tasks by your commander/squad leader.

Edited by: Nergal01

--

anon wrote:

There are only two things in this world worse than Vector Thrust; Star Citizen and No Man's Sky

'anon' wrote: Now I shall use this 'Vector Thrust Threshold' to measure how awful your product is

Dec 13 2013 Anchor

How are flares and chaff going to work? Are we going to have to thumb through that menu every time we need to evade missile or do the countermeasures drop automatically?

Edited by: bornloser

Nergal01
Nergal01 I stopped supporting Vector Thrust. AMA.
Dec 13 2013 Anchor

bornloser wrote: How are flares and chaff going to work? Are we going to have to thumb through that menu every time we need to evade missile or do the countermeasures drop automatically?


I'm pretty sure the chaff/flare counter isn't tied to the comms menu though.

I'm still wondering how's the way to respond/answer other unit question, i.e the classic AC5-style YES/NO choice.

--

anon wrote:

There are only two things in this world worse than Vector Thrust; Star Citizen and No Man's Sky

'anon' wrote: Now I shall use this 'Vector Thrust Threshold' to measure how awful your product is

MyHatismyFriend
MyHatismyFriend Synchronized Drowning Expert
Dec 13 2013 Anchor

Chaff and Flares are mapped to buttons on the keyboard, as default they're a bit hard to get to from the normal controls but you can always change it.

Dec 13 2013 Anchor

Nergal01 wrote:

bornloser wrote: How are flares and chaff going to work? Are we going to have to thumb through that menu every time we need to evade missile or do the countermeasures drop automatically?


I'm pretty sure the chaff/flare counter isn't tied to the comms menu though.


It was in one of the screenshots on this page. Look for "deploy flare" and "deploy chaff" in the second image.

Edited by: bornloser

Nergal01
Nergal01 I stopped supporting Vector Thrust. AMA.
Dec 13 2013 Anchor

bornloser wrote:

Nergal01 wrote:
bornloser wrote: How are flares and chaff going to work? Are we going to have to thumb through that menu every time we need to evade missile or do the countermeasures drop automatically?


I'm pretty sure the chaff/flare counter isn't tied to the comms menu though.


It was in one of the screenshots on this page. Look for "deploy flare" and "deploy chaff" in the second image.


Pretty sure it's an alternative way should you forgot to bind the respective keys.

--

anon wrote:

There are only two things in this world worse than Vector Thrust; Star Citizen and No Man's Sky

'anon' wrote: Now I shall use this 'Vector Thrust Threshold' to measure how awful your product is

Dec 13 2013 Anchor

Nergal01 wrote: Pretty sure it's an alternative way should you forgot to bind the respective keys.


^this.

As the game gets more and more keys, I was worried that a controller uses may have trouble in managing all that with only the available buttons of the game pad.
So a solution can be to resort to the command menu to access the less frequently used keys.
A potential mapping solution for xbox and PS2 controllers is using the Directional buttons:

Default:
Left arrow: open the command menu
Up arrow: enable AOA
Right arrow: activate/deactivate special function
Down arrow: deploy Chaff & flare

And with the Command menu open:
Left arrow: close the command menu
Up arrow: move up
Right arrow: Accept
Down arrow: Move down

IbizenThoth wrote: I guess my first question is whether or not the "Defend Area" order will be indicated on the radar or not.


After that I was thinking in adding the option:
Player location;
Unit location;

MyHatismyFriend wrote: Will mechanics like landing etc. still be developed after the game is released?


Yes there a lot more mechanics that I’m interest in adding,
But while I think is ok to sell more content as DLC, new mechanics well be released for free as a regular patch.

Nergal01 wrote: More like UT voice menu tab I think.

100% based on UT

IbizenThoth wrote: Second is how we'll be using the "Aircraft" sub menu. Though I think it would probably be more trouble than it's worth, as far as development goes, having your WSO control countermeasures automatically and giving him commands on how to use them through the aircraft menu would be interesting.


Probably this was misleading, but the “Aircraft” submenu is to control only your own aircrafts, this option grants the possibility to expand and add finer controls in the future, like configure bomb/rocket ripple time, some missiles flight mode, deploy landing gears, arresting hook, etc.

IbizenThoth wrote: It also makes me wonder, if an AI is of higher rank than you, could they dynamically set missions for you in the same way you are allowed to set missions? It would certainly be interesting, for example, if you received additional points for following an order given to you by home base, with the orders varying every time a mission is played. It'd sorta be like being a hero unit in an RTS game played by AI.


That is a idea we can explore in the future.

Edited by: timeSymmetry

Nergal01
Nergal01 I stopped supporting Vector Thrust. AMA.
Dec 13 2013 Anchor

timeSymmetry wrote:

Probably this was misleading, but the “Aircraft” submenu is to control only your own aircrafts, this option grants the possibility to expand and add finer controls in the future, like configure bomb/rocket ripple time, some missiles flight mode, deploy landing gears, arresting hook, etc.


Perhaps he meant by: If you're flying a two-seater (or bigger), you can issue the WSO/RIO to do those stuff automatically for you, might able to give extra edge for two-seaters.

Immersion Aesthetic-wise, can we have the menus to look MFD-ish?

Edited by: Nergal01

--

anon wrote:

There are only two things in this world worse than Vector Thrust; Star Citizen and No Man's Sky

'anon' wrote: Now I shall use this 'Vector Thrust Threshold' to measure how awful your product is

Dec 13 2013 Anchor

This aesthetic is to make a better blend with the final game menus to avoid having strong contrasting styles.
MFD look could have been a good choice, but then the menus would have to follow the same style.

But as for the WSO, it can be added the option to “allow WSO Control” to control the countermeasures, but I don’t want to be a 100% accurate in choosing the right type and quantity of countermeasure used.

Dec 13 2013 Anchor

This could make playable bombers/gunships pretty interesting. You could order your defensive gunner to prioritize planes targeting your bomber or provide cover to the other bombers in your formation. In an AC-130 you could switch to the gunner's chair and then set a waypoint for the pilot to circle.

EA-6Bs also have a crew of 4 but I'm not sure what they do.

Dec 13 2013 Anchor

Where a RIO/WSO or co-pilot acting as WSO in the case of dual seaters like the F/A-18(Or F-16)B/D/F models proves their worth is in dealing with the targeting systems, and being able to achieve a radar lock much quicker.

But for helicopter gunners, or cases where the aircraft may have a separated, traversing turret, being able to issue target priority would certainly be useful, even for more 'typical' aircraft you'd see in the game that can provide a laser designation for another aircraft. Unfortunately, however, there's not much that I can think of regarding RIO/WSO/Co-pilot orientated commands, bornloser already covered what would be the most useful. ArmA's co-pilot functions are pretty damn useful, so handing off control in some cases may be convenient, but it would primarily be in long missions or multiplayer ones where being able to take your hands off the controls for a moment, and, perhaps even do the WSO job yourself, so on and so forth.

I think if you wanted to develop the whole WSO thing, the best way to have done it would be to look at it from a, 'If a player were doing this, what would make useful? What would be the advantages?' sort of perspective. Not really the type of game, but, I'unno, I certainly don't mind crewing a position, and neither does my usual co-pilot/pilot/crew chief for ArmA.

timeSymmetry wrote: This aesthetic is to make a better blend with the final game menus to avoid having strong contrasting styles.
MFD look could have been a good choice, but then the menus would have to follow the same style.


I think it's actually more strange for the menu you see in-game not matching the HUD. Ace Combat's pause menus, in various games, had an... In character sort of look to them, and while the contrast wasn't great, they looked great. At least having the color match the HUD would go a long way towards bridging the gap between the two and having a fairly solid link, but, I'm not sure it really matters, as long as the menus use the same fonts and so forth.

--

Swing-Wing Crazy

Koeben
Koeben Ground Pounder
Dec 13 2013 Anchor

Will there be an option to have wingmen ask questions or making plot related decisions that result in mission branching by using wingmen commands? This would be a great option to make possible mission branching in custom campaigns.

Dec 13 2013 Anchor

Koeben wrote: Will there be an option to have wingmen ask questions or making plot related decisions that result in mission branching by using wingmen commands? This would be a great option to make possible mission branching in custom campaigns.


Hopefully not too often. I actually think AC5 both wasted this feature and overused it. There were only 2 questions that actually seemed to matter.

IbizenThoth
IbizenThoth Gun-crazy
Dec 13 2013 Anchor

I think that lending wingmen a degree of autonomy would be nice though. I remember they sometimes asked if they could use a different formation if you were in one that might not be working too well. Might be nice if your wingmen could request to go and take care of an objective instead of hovering around you while you're shooting down some side objective. Something like: "Squad lead, Boss is asking us to defend that area. Should go and help?" or "I've taken a lot of damage/run out of ammo, can I RTB?"

As for story branching, I think that mission outcome should decide that. That said, I think that failing a mission shouldn't necessarily mean that you've lost, with the war story proceeding from the result.

Defend City
>>>>>>>>>> Win = start counteroffensive, plan to take enemy cities
>>>>>>>>>> Fail = fall back further in country, plan deep strike mission to cripple enemy supply line

If something like this has well written scenarios, you get really interesting results, and it makes your performance something altogether more interesting to note. For example, it's possible to have multiple branches in your story due to the results of various sub-missions in a sortie. It'd make VT's branching mission structure actually matter, instead of being a mere advertising bit, like AC 5 and Zero.

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