The USSFC is losing hope and losing the war, but the poorly equipped Legion are losing soldiers fast. This is the desperate last struggle of two clashing armies... This is Crimson Crow.

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We suddenly just went silent for two months. A totally strange situation that we have finally decided to explain. Even our concept artist was worried!

Posted by ninjadave on Dec 15th, 2009

Torque Game Engine Advanced is a pretty fine engine, but up until a few months ago, frame-rate was flying downhill. We couldn't explain it, 'something' was eating those precious frames! We toned down the shaders, disabled all normal maps in the engine game, and split apart brushes to ease the rendering. The engine was still suffering, it seems we've just pushed it over the edge.

Then it happened.

UDK finally emerged onto the scene, and immediately caught everyone's attention. We looked at TGEA, then back at UDK. The choice was clear.

After running test and cooking a very small build, we soon ran into a large amount of problems. Suddenly the team become very contested.

No one was able to decide if we should finish the jump to UDK or go back to TGEA. Then somewhere along the lines, FoTacTix suggested Torque 3D.
None of us could argue with that! After-all, its a similar architecture and modernized graphics.

While even our example pictures are, in fact, quite miserable (They were made by a programmer after-all); we have great plans and a lot of re-structured ideas.
I'm sure not everyone would agree with another engine jump, as it causes many problems, and some would even say the UDK would have been a better move, but we're sticking with our decision and we hope we'll have some major updates soon.

Post comment Comments
Armageddon104 Dec 15 2009, 11:26pm buried:


So great that your staing with Torgue. UDK sucks!

-5 votes     reply to comment
angry_bot Dec 16 2009, 1:44am replied:

And what's wrong with UDK, again?

+4 votes     reply to comment
Arxae Dec 16 2009, 2:26am replied:

Read the article :p not everyone was satisfied with the engine + they had some problems xD

+4 votes     reply to comment
AlCool Dec 17 2009, 2:11am replied:

UDK is awesome, but they obviously found trouble porting over to it.

I personally dislike the torque engine. and the TGEA. I love the quake 3 engine and the ET version of it though :D

+3 votes     reply to comment
LordIheanacho Dec 24 2009, 9:32pm replied:

Porting over to the UDK Engine would be a great idea! Forfeiting such idea would be as disappointing as a very promised mod entering its downfall(dying). Besides Torque's engines rather suck (too low-poly for one). If you want your game on a good engine UDK is the PERFECT choice.

-1 votes     reply to comment
Tokoya Dec 16 2009, 12:53am says:

Just glad to see you are still in developement!

+1 vote     reply to comment
hate4uall Dec 16 2009, 2:44am says:

i am looking forward to this mod the making of it in its self is a crazy ride keep all the great work team look forward to kicking *** on this one

+1 vote     reply to comment
Elementalist Dec 16 2009, 2:58am says:

Rather disappointed you're not going with UDK, but... We'll see what happens. Glad to see things are happening, best of luck to you all!

Torque 3D will inflate costs, though, won't it? It couldn't have been merely a suggestions, considering that's at least what, $500 for each person using the engine? Not exactly sure the upgrade pricing.

However... If you're using Torque 3D, can we expect to see a web portal to Crimson Crow, a la Instant Action/Blurst? THAT would be most excellent, and a point over UDK.

0 votes     reply to comment
ninjadave Author
ninjadave Dec 16 2009, 10:00am replied:

Since the UDK hype, T3D is now around $100 for a short while.

I've been researching instant action for some time. I don't see why not, but its not a guarantee at this point.

+2 votes   reply to comment
Elementalist Dec 16 2009, 12:39pm replied:

Interesting. Didn't know that, wish I had $100 to spare right now!

However... When I go to their store, it's still showing up as $1000. Odd.

I figured it wouldn't be a guarantee, but it'd definitely be neat.

Ah, wait, I see... The Binary version has $150 off for 30 days. Right. Interesting that Garage Games is going that route, it's good for pockets obviously, but after how long they've been touting that their engines are affordable, -with- source code, seems they're shooting themselves (from a moral standpoint) in the foot.

+1 vote     reply to comment
Tharapita Dec 16 2009, 3:57am says:

I for one like that they're not jumping on the UDK bandwagon.

+2 votes     reply to comment
SinKing Dec 16 2009, 4:48am says:

Didn't I suggest doing that a year ago?
Things move slowly in development until you reach a certain point of no return. Once all's set there is no hesitating and only lots of good action involved. It's the waiting times between decisions and developments that get to you.

+1 vote     reply to comment
ninjadave Author
ninjadave Dec 16 2009, 10:01am replied:

Basically... yes.

In fact I think this has happened more than once?

+1 vote   reply to comment
myles Dec 16 2009, 7:19am says:

Probably more to do with not understanding the Unreal engine than it having 'problems'. Care to explain the difference between Torque Advanced Game Engine and Torque 3D? Seems they have a huge amount of different engines.

+2 votes     reply to comment
ninjadave Author
ninjadave Dec 16 2009, 10:09am replied:

Honestly so far its really a more modern engine, with a more thought-out editor, web publishing, and collada abilities.

The more I use the engine the more I learn about it.
I think I'll eventually write a review.

+2 votes   reply to comment
moci Dec 16 2009, 12:06pm replied:

Please do, as it only costs 100$ now.
But at a 3d forum I visit a lot people have advised me NOT to buy Torque3D .

I also read a few reviews that also said Torque3D to be an improvement but not worth the money as UDK and Unity (and other free engines) provide more bang for your buck. (Specially when not going commercial, UDK).

Also, I doubt that Torque3D is better in anything, besides being easier to jump in and learn it, compared to UDK.
Just look at what the unreal engine is capable of doing...

+2 votes     reply to comment
ninjadave Author
ninjadave Dec 16 2009, 1:45pm replied:

I've deeply researched the UDK, as well as made a small build to play off of. I honestly do like its features and capabilities, but I just believe its simply not for us.

I have not researched Unity though and I will definitely do that to be on the safe side. Not much of a chance to jump to it, but sometimes you can never put all your eggs in one basket.

Most reviews I've seen on any Torque Engine are usually way against its 'complicated' work-flow. Getting any exporters to work properly is a pain, and while T3D fixes a lot of that, it still has a nice learning curve.

I've had little to no problems other-wise.

+1 vote   reply to comment
moci Dec 16 2009, 3:28pm replied:

Why check out Unity? If you made your mind about T3D and you're already using it why not stick with it now?

There is no point is swapping engines all the time, if you ever want to finish your project.

+1 vote     reply to comment
ninjadave Author
ninjadave Dec 16 2009, 5:54pm replied:

I think I'll do that.

+1 vote   reply to comment
Zargogo Dec 16 2009, 11:40pm replied:

Have you seen Naruto: Naiteki Kensei and what they've done with the HALF LIFE 1 engine? Any engine can do an amazing job, if the person behind it has enough skill.

+1 vote     reply to comment
ninjadave Author
ninjadave Dec 17 2009, 9:18am replied:

Yes I always read their updates. They've done some extensive work on the engine, but no doubt they know how to properly use the engine as well.

+1 vote   reply to comment
pvt.Johnson Dec 16 2009, 7:26am says:

Both engines are damn and good and both have their own problems and limitations.

+3 votes     reply to comment
pvt.Johnson Dec 16 2009, 12:18pm replied:

Excuse my typo ;)

+1 vote     reply to comment
azultain Dec 16 2009, 8:19am says:

i have not advice for Torque 3d or UDK

+1 vote     reply to comment
ninjadave Author
ninjadave Dec 16 2009, 10:10am replied:

Why not?

+1 vote   reply to comment
Robots! Dec 16 2009, 11:59am says:

I'd never be able to play U3.

Good choice.

+1 vote     reply to comment
ninjadave Author
ninjadave Dec 16 2009, 1:46pm replied:

I barely can with everything on the lowest setting.
My poor laptop isn't too powerful.

+1 vote   reply to comment
Elementalist Dec 17 2009, 12:06am replied:

I'm not sure I really understand these sentiments. I mean, it's the engine to a point, but also the content being run. From my experience, Unreal Engine is -very- optimized.

I can run the UDK demos with little lag, on low resolution.

However, I can't run the Torque3D demos anywhere -near- playable framerates. Even then, the UDK demo looks prettier to me overall.

And even -with- all that, just because UDK supports 'x' shaders and 'x by x' textures and such, doesn't mean they all have to be utilized.

At its core, Unreal Engine seems more optimized than Torque 3D than me, and by using less effects and lower resolution textures, you could make it run even better. Which you can do with Torque 3D as well, but as said, there appears to be less leeway.

Just pointing this out, that deciding on Torque 3D because of optimization makes no sense to me.

+2 votes     reply to comment
AlCool Dec 17 2009, 2:16am replied:

Unreal is INCREDIBLY optimized. You could get better framesrates with higher graphical settings vs most other engines out there. Hell just compare it to the source engine. It loads more in faster, and looks better afterwords.

Also a big problem you will have with UDK if you can barely support the game, is the editor will crash, a LOT. You want good processors, more then anything.

+1 vote     reply to comment
ninjadave Author
ninjadave Dec 17 2009, 9:21am replied:

Ironically, all the T3D demos lag for me as well. For some reason the empty desert causes my character to skip like a mad-man. Its normally better optimized than that.

The editor crashes all the time for me. I just figured it was something I was doing.

+1 vote   reply to comment
FoTacTix Creator
FoTacTix Dec 16 2009, 2:14pm says:

Dave, why aren't you

UDK seemed great, but it would have slowed us down even further. Actually, we would have had to rebuilt the game from the ground up.

+1 vote   reply to comment
ninjadave Author
ninjadave Dec 16 2009, 5:55pm replied:

Sorry, wasn't on IM. I had to leave for work in 15 minutes, otherwise I would have been.

+1 vote   reply to comment
TeamWolf Dec 17 2009, 7:35am says:

Man I am so glad to hear stuff from you guys again, not that I thought you had ever died. And a new engine it seems, good luck with it and I hope you can get some more updates out!

+1 vote     reply to comment
azultain Dec 21 2009, 8:26pm says:

The first engine is more "realist" like stalker for me, Udk is.. Different, when i play bioshock, fuel of war they have so much effect (like bloom, bump..) the npc looks like a plastic skin. But it is really new engine with more choice, and nice engine. It is just my advice and it is why i have not prefer engine

+1 vote     reply to comment
ninjadave Author
ninjadave Dec 28 2009, 1:39pm replied:

Its not the engine that chooses how much bloom or bump mapping is in a game.

Its the developers.

+1 vote   reply to comment
ChaoticNeutral Dec 24 2009, 6:20pm says:

I just hope whatever you chose has very little lag.

+1 vote     reply to comment
ninjadave Author
ninjadave Dec 28 2009, 1:40pm replied:

Lag? Yes, Torque has well done net-coding.

+1 vote   reply to comment
dill1233 Dec 27 2009, 10:58pm says:

Well, I've been thinking about using UDK for all of my games, but I'm sure Torque 3D will still be great for your game.

+1 vote     reply to comment
GideonB Dec 31 2009, 7:52am says:

Great to hear development is back on track, I've been looking forward to this game and still am. Hopefully a beta soon as you guys have finished moving to a slightly newer version of Torque which shouldnt take to long as it's pretty much the same engine (I thought that anyways).

Never tried UDK though when I tried an Unreal Editor, it confused me. Probably not used to it's UnrealEd yet. I also recommend you try out Unity. It's pretty good from what I hear.

+1 vote     reply to comment
ninjadave Author
ninjadave Dec 31 2009, 2:19pm replied:

Actually I did try it out, ended up not really knowing how to use it. It has a very neat 'publish to web' feature which I found pretty cool.

I've been playing FarCry alot lately, so the tropical theme in the demo beginning really worked for me.

Don't know if its right for us though. I see a lot of similarities, but then whats the point of switching?

+1 vote   reply to comment
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