When you need a team for free... Thread

When I read the 'Free' Job Posts, I notice a few things that make me laugh.

One is emails not typed in correctly by unregistered guests (so you can't even let them know the email they listed doesn't work). Those people must be wondering "Why has no one applied?"

Two is requests to sign an NDA before joining the team. This one makes me laugh the most. A little early for that, isn't it? It seems a lot of people who decide they want to make a game for the first time are paranoid someone will take their 'million-dollar-idea' of which they are betting everything on. It couldn't be further from the truth. Ideas a cheap and nobody pays for them, not even big companies, because what they're really buying is you and your passion for your craft or 'idea'.

Three, asking for a resume and portfolio. Beggars can't be choosers. You're lucky to get any help for free.

Four, incentivising with "you can add this to your portfolio".

Five, incentivising with future "kickstarter" or "revenue share". Money should not be motivating you at this point. Make your demo then talk.

Six, demanding people's time. Actually demanding it. If you're not going to pay someone for their time, it's borderline insulting. Promises to pay in the future don't count.

Seven, posting "Position filled" messages by underestimating how much time, energy & effort is involved. Never close to door. The grander the vision for your game, the more people you're going to need if you don't want to be working on it forever.

Eight, expecting experienced people to work for your free project. Experienced people aren't that bored. Besides, all indies are 'inexperienced' to a degree. The whole point of the project is to get experience! Wasn't it?

I think that about covers it.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

When I read the 'Free' Job Posts, I notice a few things that make me laugh.

So, you are opening a thread to laugh at other people's mistakes, not so professional, is it?

BrianRhineheart wrote:

One is emails not typed in correctly by unregistered guests (so you can't even let them know the email they listed doesn't work). Those people must be wondering "Why has no one applied?"

They do probably wonder, but mistakes can happen to everyone. It does not always mean that they're sloppy in every part of what they are doing. I do agree that people should check their posts after publishing them too, though.

BrianRhineheart wrote: Two is requests to sign an NDA before joining the team. This one makes me laugh the most. A little early for that, isn't it? It seems a lot of people who decide they want to make a game for the first time are paranoid someone will take their 'million-dollar-idea' of which they are betting everything on. It couldn't be further from the truth. Ideas a cheap and nobody pays for them, not even big companies, because what they're really buying is you and your passion for your craft or 'idea'.

True, many beginners are afraid of their ideas being stolen. That's naive, but it's also cool to see how passionate they are about their idea.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

Three, asking for a resume and portfolio. Beggars can't be choosers. You're lucky to get any help for free.

That's not true and I don't see how no-budget projects automatically turn you into a beggar with no standards. The first step to recruit skilled people is to show high standards, because it shows that you know what you are doing and what you want.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

Four, incentivising with "you can add this to your portfolio".

Even no-budget projects work with real NDA-contracts sometimes and I also have told artists that they are not allowed to post certain pieces, because it would have hurt the projects' PR strategies. Those are exceptions, but it does happen and it makes perfect sense to tell the artist that all of their work can be published with no restrictions.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

Five, incentivising with future "kickstarter" or "revenue share". Money should not be motivating you at this point. Make your demo then talk.

I agree, most projects promise revenue share without having a real business plan.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

Six, demanding people's time. Actually demanding it. If you're not going to pay someone for their time, it's borderline insulting. Promises to pay in the future don't count.

I agree that you cannot demand that from people, but it's absolutely okay to be strict. If the other person has agreed on working so and so many hours per week and he just does not do it without communicating anything, the person should be told to leave. Scheduling and managing a project is no joke and the more people you have to manage, the higher is the need to be able to rely on what was agreed upon. Sure, if things change and they just don't have that much time that's absolutely fine, but it has to be communicated. It hurts the project if they don't.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

Seven, posting "Position filled" messages by underestimating how much time, energy & effort is involved. Never close to door. The grander the vision for your game, the more people you're going to need if you don't want to be working on it forever.

You seem to underestimate the time that is required to manage people. You can't just let anyone join your team with no limits. There's a limit to teamsizes, which is depending on the amount of work the management can invest each day and a certain limit at which the amount of people/input starts to hurt the productivity and creativity, aswell.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

Eight, expecting experienced people to work for your free project. Experienced people aren't that bored. Besides, all indies are 'inexperienced' to a degree. The whole point of the project is to get experience! Wasn't it?

Untrue, I have been working with highly skilled people, who worked in lead positions at well known game companies like EA or Sony Online Entertainment. Neither did I offer them any pay upfront nor did I promise them some kind of money in the future. Attracting people like that is a matter of social skills and persuasiveness.

It's a good thing that you want to inform people about typical beginner mistakes, but making fun of them is definitely not very elegant.

Best wishes,

Kjell

Edited by: iqew

Four, incentivising with "you can add this to your portfolio"

Sure there are a lot of things that people new to the game get wrong and just don't know, so they try and copy and do what they see everyone else doing. This is actually the most interesting point you raised in your 'new producer' list that you raised.

I find Indie games are either used to express creative ideas that the larger companies may have passed over or just never known about. Which is great, keeps the industry fresh and competitive. The other thing is using the Indie scene as a stepping stone to work with the AAA developers. I say this as most of them want X number of years and so many games shipped with at least 1 in a AAA franchise. Its a classic case of you cant work in the game industry unless you've worked in the game industry.

I know there are exceptions with truly great Modelers/Musicians/Artists and ect, but for the norm they want so much experience. So I can see some people just wanting the experience if it is in a genre that they want to grow in/become professionally employed in the industry.

I wasn't expecting such long response. I must of struck a nerve.

I wasn't making fun of anyone. I can't help being amused. I wasn't labelling anyone either "Beggars can't be choosers" is a expression, meaning don't be too picky and appreciate the help that's on offer (especially when you can't pay). - NDA's are a buzz-kill and discourage open collaboration (working for free is another way of saying open-collaboration). - You really can't force someone to stick with your project, especially for free (and people leaving free projects happen quite a lot - you just gotta roll with it). - Most people only seek one person for each role which would be a burden since working for free means they can only offer a few hours a week at best.

Read in the proper context, what I wrote makes sense. Maybe I should have underlined 'Free' a few times.

What I'm encouraging, is that posts about 'free' jobs be a little less serious and a little more about the fun of making games.

There were others things too, like taking the word "never" too literally. Forgetting you don't have to micro-manage large teams and can delegate responsibility. A difference between passively seeking experienced unpaid staff vs pro-actively seeking experienced unpaid support. I could go on and on but it's not worth it.

It's okay to dream big and to invite others along for the ride.

"Good luck, everybody." & "God bless us, everyone."

@Thr111

Sure there are a lot of things that people new to the game get wrong and just don't know, so they try and copy and do what they see everyone else doing.

Yeah. I imagine that's why it's become so common.

The other thing is using the Indie scene as a stepping stone to work with the AAA developers. I say this as most of them want X number of years and so many games shipped with at least 1 in a AAA franchise. Its a classic case of you cant work in the game industry unless you've worked in the game industry.

Bingo.

That's why I support and encourage the Indie scene (including beginners). I just think they're not getting the most out of the experience by getting too ahead of themselves with unrealistic expectations of making-it-big so quickly. They should treat it as a fun learning experience and a 'stepping-stone' just as you said. It will lead them to a job - but not millions & millions of dollars as they are probably imagining.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

I wasn't making fun of anyone. I can't help being amused.

What are you amused by, though? Why are you laughing, if someone does one or multiple things you have listed? I don't see a reason.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

NDA's are a buzz-kill and discourage open collaboration

Why? There are all sorts of types for those agreements, just find one both parties agree to. If artists are ambitious and serious about what they do and want to join a project that helps them progress, dealing with NDA contracts actually helps them, because they can get familiar with the process. And if the artist does not want restrictions regarding the publishment of his/her work, he/she simply is not a fit for such a project. Many projects update their game's site very regularly and the NDA only prohibits the artist to publish their work before said updates are published. It's not such a big deal in the end.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

Most people only seek one person for each role which would be a burden since working for free means they can only offer a few hours a week at best.

Where is this experience coming from? There are thousands and thousands of projects out there, which don't fit that generalization. And if the project just got started and might even be led by a beginner, it makes sense that only certain positions are filled and often times one person is enough to start with.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

Read in the proper context, what I wrote makes sense. Maybe I should have underlined 'Free' a few times.

I perfectly got that context. Working for someone for free or creating a project without a budget do not effect the quality of the outcome, though.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

"Beggars can't be choosers" is a expression, meaning don't be too picky and appreciate the help that's on offer [...]

I did not know that expression until now, thank you for clarifying.

Best wishes,

Kjell

Edited by: iqew

@iQew

I was thinking that you were making too much of this, and it was bothering me, but then I decided to try and understand your perspective a little better and then... Oh, hello. What's this?

Indiedb.com

Things started to make sense again I began to feel better about what I had originally said.

So what happened? What did you learn? What would you have done differently?

Maybe now is a bad time to ask (because of the refugee crisis - I don't know on which side you stand on the issue) but then again it might be cathartic for you to express what the process was like.

If it's any consolation, your job-posts were far better & more professional than many I've seen and nothing what I said applies to the way you handled things, it only applies to the growing trend I'm seeing recently with respect to spur-of-the-moment "I want to make a game for the first time" and request a novice team. If you look at recent free 'job' posts around different sites, you'll see what I mean.

I don't doubt people's potential, in fact I encourage people to reach their potential, but I know about the road ahead and would prefer 'newbies' get a better understanding of what they're really asking for. Maybe you can help them with that because you have first hand experience as an Indie Developer.

Any light you can share on this topic would make for some interesting reading. You may even be interested in writing & selling your article to an e-publisher.

Look forward to hearing from you.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

So what happened? What did you learn? What would you have done differently?

The project was closed, because university took too much time from me and the co-leader. I learned a massive amount of things, most of what I learned can be seen in my answers in this thread. I wouldn't have done anything differently, Mindworld was a great success for what it was and the vision for the game is still very worth developing for. I'm thinking about ways to realize our ideas in the future, because I have almost completed university by now.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

I don't doubt people's potential, in fact I encourage people to reach their potential, but I know about the road ahead and would prefer 'newbies' get a better understanding of what they're really asking for. Maybe you can help them with that because you have first hand experience as an Indie Developer.

I know you want to encourage people here and help them, but I don't like it when people demonstrate their experiences as general rules for everything. The tips you give at the beginning are mainly valuable for people, who do not have any experience in modding or indie game development. You should mention this.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

Any light you can share on this topic would make for some interesting reading. You may even be interested in writing & selling your article to an e-publisher.

Look forward to hearing from you.

I give plenty of advice in the forums, as you can see here. I am never going to sell e-books, knowledge should be free.

Best wishes,

Kjell

Edited by: iqew

@iQew

I am never going to sell e-books, knowledge should be free.

Not an e-book --an article, for a website. You could release it for free if that's what you prefer. I think talking about the project experience could be prove invaluable to you and others.

The points in the thread I started are blunt, but that's life. The reality is; Success for first-time game developers is hard and commitment is flaky. These were my observations as to why project leads make success even harder and I never feel obligated to indulge people's unrealistic expectations or even lie to them about their prospects.

This wasn't an article, anyway, it was just a post. If it makes people rethink how they 'ask' for help, so much the better as they realign their priorities to their benefit.

Sometimes a person just needs to humble them-self in order to get the help they've been seeking. But that isn't the trend I'm seeing and it's frankly annoying and counter productive, not to mention limiting.

I didn't think anyone would even notice what I wrote but it seems to resonate with you quite a bit. I recommend being flexible about indie development, the first game doesn't have to be the be-all end-all project, and write that article, please. (Instead of replying to me)

BrianRhineheart wrote:

@iQew

I am never going to sell e-books, knowledge should be free.

Not an e-book --an article, for a website. You could release it for free if that's what you prefer. I think talking about the project experience could be prove invaluable to you and others.

The points in the thread I started are blunt, but that's life. The reality is; Success for first-time game developers is hard and commitment is flaky. These were my observations as to why project leads make success even harder and I never feel obligated to indulge people's unrealistic expectations or even lie to them about their prospects.

This wasn't an article, anyway, it was just a post. If it makes people rethink how they 'ask' for help, so much the better as they realign their priorities to their benefit.

Sometimes a person just needs to humble them-self in order to get the help they've been seeking. But that isn't the trend I'm seeing and it's frankly annoying and counter productive, not to mention limiting.

I didn't think anyone would even notice what I wrote but it seems to resonate with you quite a bit. I recommend being flexible about indie development, the first game doesn't have to be the be-all end-all project, and write that article, please. (Instead of replying to me)

I already have written a post about this topic and asked mods to pin the thread, but it was ignored. I will think about it, thanks for the kind words.

Best wishes,

Kjell

You definitely should try and re-submit it, even if it is dismissed or ignored, you can turn it into a (bi)weekly blog were you account your heroism and conquest of the general trials that you encounter as a developer. Things that the average person who aspires to create games may not have thought about or realize that they will encounter during the (months/years) of development.

@iQew

I already have written a post about this topic and asked mods to pin the thread, but it was ignored. I will think about it, thanks for the kind words.

Wheres the thread, i never got a message about pinning such an article.

TKAzA wrote:

@iQew

I already have written a post about this topic and asked mods to pin the thread, but it was ignored. I will think about it, thanks for the kind words.

Wheres the thread, i never got a message about pinning such an article.

It was a thread about how to present your project in the recruitment section and how to format the thread. This was quite some years ago, I think you were not even a CM back then. It is not worth it to dig it out again, I would rather re-write it someday.

I wrote a short summary of my experiences in a "guide" some time back. I have re-read it and the information are still up-to-date. You can read and download it here: Drive.google.com

Best wishes,

Kjell