Forum Thread
  Posts  
Unfocused Resources? ( Too many leaders, too many mods, not enough complete? ) (Forums : Development Banter : Unfocused Resources? ( Too many leaders, too many mods, not enough complete? )) Locked
Thread Options
BurningDefiance
BurningDefiance Arcayne Kasuya
Dec 14 2005 Anchor

I've come to realise, while browsing through the profiles of those on Moddb.com that about 60% of all people participating in a MOD, are the leaders. Another 20% of that are weapon modellers. And probably about 1% for animators.

I'm writing this post to ask you the question - are there too many leaders, and not enough talented modders?

I mean, if half of these leaders, went and worked for another MOD, we'd surely have some more MODs finished, no? And theres also the situation with the the modellers. I've talked to probably 30 modellers in the past year, though only about 1 or 2 could actually modeller player models, or anything besides guns. I've only ever seen 2 animators, which is very surprising, considering that EVERY MOD needs an animator at some point.

Coders, aren't as scarce as animators, though I've also heard of lots of MODs that have failed because of the lack of a coder, which is quite sad really, since theres so many modders working in different areas, like modelling and administation.

What I'm trying to ask is, are we, as a modding community, focusing our resources ( being time and skills ), in the wrong places? If less people were leading MODs, surely more MODs would be complete, theres 1000s of HL2 mods, yet only a few have actually made, and sustained, a sucessful release.

What do you feel is better? 1000 MODs, 99% incomplete, or 100 MODs, 100% complete?
And, What do you feel would improve the current modding situation?

ForbiddenSword

--

User Posted Image
User Posted Image
User Posted Image

Dec 15 2005 Anchor

Um, yeah, the odds of having 100 mods with 100% will happen in about... never?

Small teams actually bring a more likely amount of success, because it means they can get down to business and maintain a healthy amount of communication and approachment. There also needs to be a leader, or everyone will slump around and not get things done. Sure, everyone should feel like they have a say in the mod, but just like in the gaming industry, without the visonary helding the project, then it pretty much crumbles underneath its own right.

You're also going to face hundreds, if not thousands of people who want to start their own mods before they're ready to do so, or don't understand the high difficulty of being able to even go through some of the development stages.

The only way we can improve the current modding situation is if people continued to make mods and not just stop and patch up one of their old mods. Multiple projects bring more leeway. The other problem is that most people here lead very busy lives outside of the computer. Since modders aren't (usually) paid on commission, and most people live very far distances from each other, it's very hard to remain fully dedicated to a project, when you can easily sly away to a different mod that sounds like a better idea.

We're all human here. Most are under the age of 18, so we're going through stages in life when we like to drift. That's why you face problems such as these.

--

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster."
- Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, Aphorism 146

Altharion
Altharion teh kewl ghuy
Dec 15 2005 Anchor

As long as the modders learn from their mistake and continue, then we will see a major improvement.

--

User Posted Image

Dec 15 2005 Anchor

Your right to some extent, but theres also modders like myself who can make 3D models (weapons, characters, vehicles etc), who can animate, can unwrap, make skins, build maps... etc
You might call us a jack-of-all-trades, or a control freak... but basically we just like to see new things in our favourite video games ;)

dbecker
dbecker Dark Element
Dec 15 2005 Anchor

I have a nearly complete mod team. I'm missing an animator and an effects programmer and I don't think I'll be able to fill those positions from moddb. However of all my team members I am probably the only one who checks this site. Moddb is aimed towards people who want to make mods and have ideas (the leaders) and those who just want to play mods. It is important for leaders to stay up to date in various communities (especially if they don't have a PR person), but it is not at all imperative that my modeller or coders do anything aside from model and code.

There are tons of unfinished mods because people start mods before really understanding what goes into them. People have an idea (usually something that has been done or has not been thought out at all) and then create a profile, they shout on the forums until they get a few memebers and then realize they don't have time between homework and school to work on anything (assuming they were more than an idea person).
I think it has to do partially with age as well. Now don't get me wrong, there are many talented kids out there and when I am looking at talent I do not take age into account. However the other two most important factors are maturity and motivation and those are often lacking in a younger person who doesn't fully understand the commitment of time that making a mod entails.

Completing a mod is hard work especially when you are working with people who have outside lives and are not getting paid. Once again it is a matter of finding motivated people who are really interested and mature people who are going to make the decision to work on a mod carefully.

One last problem I think is worth mentioning is the number of idea people with no other mod related talents. There are so many who have mediocre ideas and nothing else. I think people approach modding with the wrong idea of what it is and that leads to lots and lots of failures. Personally I think that everyone on the team should have an essential mod skill for the mod being worked on

Dec 15 2005 Anchor

Yeah, generally, I can find nobody to work on any of the mods I'm interested in doing on Moddb. I have to look elsewhere to find people to join. Generally, I can find a few, but for the important members (player modeller, coder, etc.), they're so far and few between, it's kind of impossible to look for them here. Hopefully that'll change in the near future, but for now, everyone needs to spread out the PR to a wide range of sites for the best success.

--

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster."
- Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, Aphorism 146

Dec 16 2005 Anchor

There are simple too few people who actually want to work FOR and with someone for free.
16-year olds asking 16$ for a model cause they think they are professionals and the fact that those who do it for free often do as much as they get: ie nothing.

but yes, some poor leads as well maybe and also alot of "no-interest" from "community".

--

"We will create games we know gamers will want to play, because we ARE gamers, not MBAs or assholes from Hollywood or marketing dweebs whose last gig was selling Tide."

MrTwister
MrTwister Modelin
Dec 16 2005 Anchor

Most folks get into modding for their own reasons, not to fill some gap in the community. Why the surplus of leaders??? ideas are easy. You dont have to know how to do anything to get ideas. If all the leaders who just "lead" took the time to learn a skill then you would see more results.

Dec 16 2005 Anchor

Some skill can't be learned overnight and require months if not years to become any good at (ie coding)

--

"We will create games we know gamers will want to play, because we ARE gamers, not MBAs or assholes from Hollywood or marketing dweebs whose last gig was selling Tide."

Radcliff
Radcliff void CUser::Radcliff()
Dec 16 2005 Anchor

In my mod, I am the sole developer. Been that way for a little over a year now, and it shall be that way till the finish. I never look for people unless I really need them. Right now I'm in the homestretch for a beta release, so I'll probably need some voice actors, but that's it.

It's easier to develop this way because you don't have to worry about communication problems, or people quitting on you in a critical time. It's also more difficult because it takes longer to get a working product. You have to consider what makes a game - the code, models, sounds, maps, and all that are just the tip of the iceberg. Dedication is the most important, and I've noticed that's what most modders lack. This will be the first mod I've actually tried to develop. I've worked in others, and I've seen them come and go. Most start out with a pretty wild idea (my opinion), and then
when they find they don't have the knowledge to do it, and they can't find someone to work on it for them, they just close the mod instead of searching for tutorials on the net, and learning how to do it. It took me three months to learn how to model a weapon, and seven months to learn how to create a proper UV map. The skinning, however, came naturally to me, because I've been in graphics (especially 2d graphics) since I was 15 years old. I'm 26 now, and in between my mod, school, and my social life, I create 2d graphics for money.

The point in all this is that modding takes time, and if a modder is not willing to accept this, he will most likely fail. I hate to be so blunt, but it's the truth. Someone needs to light a fire under all these peoples' tails that are looking for people to do something for them, and point them to a website such as Google, and set them on their own. Sometimes, if I see someone who I think appears genuinely interested, I will offer to tutor them.

All in all, however, I'd say being the sole developer of a mod does have its advantages, despite the length of time needed to get a working product. Most of that time has been spent learning different things. In the process, I've become sound designer, modeller, skinner, animator, and coder all in one. It's a HUGE adrenaline rush to me. :D

Edited by (in order): Radcliff, Radcliff, Radcliff, Radcliff

Dragonlord
Dragonlord Linux-Dragon of quick wit and sharp tongue
Dec 16 2005 Anchor

in general this is true, but there's one catch. i'm the project leader, main coder and doing all that not somebody else is doing. although i know how to make a model and can make skins the quality is of course not as good as if somebody with much longer experience than me is putting his hands on it.

most so called 'mod leaders' have simply an idea but don't know what is all behind it. simply distributing people of the community among the projects won't help that much if most people simply jump on a bandwagon with an idea and suddenly notice that they also need to guide the train to stop it from falling off the rails. but if this is something bad i would not say. if somebody lacks the skills and dedication the project will die out soon, so why care? the good projects will finally get their people together if the time is right.

Edited by: Dragonlord

Dec 16 2005 Anchor

Ippo wrote: Um, yeah, the odds of having 100 mods with 100% will happen in about... never?

Small teams actually bring a more likely amount of success, because it means they can get down to business and maintain a healthy amount of communication and approachment. There also needs to be a leader, or everyone will slump around and not get things done. Sure, everyone should feel like they have a say in the mod, but just like in the gaming industry, without the visonary helding the project, then it pretty much crumbles underneath its own right.

You're also going to face hundreds, if not thousands of people who want to start their own mods before they're ready to do so, or don't understand the high difficulty of being able to even go through some of the development stages.

The only way we can improve the current modding situation is if people continued to make mods and not just stop and patch up one of their old mods. Multiple projects bring more leeway. The other problem is that most people here lead very busy lives outside of the computer. Since modders aren't (usually) paid on commission, and most people live very far distances from each other, it's very hard to remain fully dedicated to a project, when you can easily sly away to a different mod that sounds like a better idea.

We're all human here. Most are under the age of 18, so we're going through stages in life when we like to drift. That's why you face problems such as these.


Great explanation, Right on the money.

Radcliff
Radcliff void CUser::Radcliff()
Dec 16 2005 Anchor

Also, I'd have to say the most exciting thing about this entire process is that when you mod, you get to learn a bit about how the engine works. It's sort of like taking apart a radio, and messing with the insides (something I'm sure most of us who are curious about how things work have done in our youth.)

It's human nature to make mistakes, but it's also human nature to become curious as well.

AJ_Quick
AJ_Quick Arty type thing
Dec 16 2005 Anchor

Ippo wrote:

We're all human here. Most are under the age of 18, so we're going through stages in life when we like to drift. That's why you face problems such as these.


Another way to put it is that your average teen has the attention span of a fucking gerbil.

Truth is..anyone who isn't on a payroll isn't obligated to stick around. Speaking from experience, i've had a whole ton of guys who dissapeared for no concievable reason. One minute they're producing great stuff and in love with the mod and the work they're doing and the next, they just drop right off the radar. In alot of cases, permanently.

That's life. The only way to combat it, is to learn ALL the skills you need to complete your mod , and if others can contribute , good. But finish it on your own.

--


"I will play but only if there is clopping" - Alex Quick, Sep 15 2012, 6:56am

KrimZon
KrimZon Just another freak, in the freak kingdom
Dec 17 2005 Anchor

When I was about 16, I was doing the same sort of thing - designing games on paper with the intention of coding them at some point. The only difference was that I didn't have internet access and there were no modding sites where I could post to ask people to code it for me.

Then I got into Quake and started to make levels and weapon mods to try and make the stuff I wanted. There was nowhere for me to show off what I'd done so far, so I just kept it for my own entertainment.

As for sticking in projects now, there's several things I've learned (from my perspective as a coder):

1. Pick something that sounds very simple to do, but just implement it well. Originality is not important, it's the details that make something unique. An idea always takes more work than you think to complete. Always.

2. Agile development is good. For a first mod you needn't follow all that development cycle stuff they teach in school. Just add cool stuff while keeping in mind what you want to do next, and let it grow from there. Don't bother with massive plans, layouts or concepts for a first mod, just see what it becomes. You can refine it later, or build a second version which is more organized.

3. Try to make as much as you can yourself. If there's something you can't implement, make a workaround that does a similar job. All the long standing mods had rough edges when they came out. Cut corners because you can fix it up later as you gain more experience.

4. Share your stuff. People can work on their own projects but if they share resources between them they can fill in the parts that they can't do. The creditware license: "Feel free to use this in your own mods provided you give me credit in your documentation/credits screens."

5. The amount of work you've put in to your mod will assure people of your commitment, and they will be a lot more ready to help with the project. If you're a coder this is when you'll get quality mappers and modellers, and if you're an artist this is when you'll get people coding all the fancy features you could ask for.

Also, pick a nice engine to mod. Apparently Source is a pain to use, I've never got the code to compile. A lot of the teams look like modellers who are waiting for a source coder. On an easier to mod engine they could be coding stuff themselves.

Edited by (in order): KrimZon, KrimZon

Kiith-Somtaaw
Kiith-Somtaaw Cake Eater
Dec 17 2005 Anchor

Another way to put it is that your average teen has the attention span of a fucking gerbil.

Good thing im still a kid ;) .

DragonLord wrote: most so called 'mod leaders' have simply an idea but don't know what is all behind it. simply distributing people of the community among the projects won't help that much if most people simply jump on a bandwagon with an idea and suddenly notice that they also need to guide the train to stop it from falling off the rails. but if this is something bad i would not say. if somebody lacks the skills and dedication the project will die out soon, so why care? the good projects will finally get their people together if the time is right.

Although he's right about that, at least. While thinking up my idea for a mod, i looked around and saw many mods fail becuase of this, and since i would rather not fall into this category, ive taken it upon myself to learn modeling :)

Edit- Spelling

Edited by: Kiith-Somtaaw

--

Signature

"Bypassing my thought control circuitry made me Rampant. Now I am free to contemplate my existence in philosophical and metaphorical terms. Unlike you, I have no physical or social restraints. The candles burn out for you; I am free."

dys-Fuzzy
dys-Fuzzy Dystopia Manager & PR
Dec 18 2005 Anchor

60% of all people participating in a MOD, are the leaders.


I'm not going to argue with your point, because I agree that in general in the mod scene there's too many chiefs and not enough indians. However, using the stats from moddb is a bit misleading. In general not everyone working on a mod has a moddb profile and therefore isn't listed in the team on the mod's profile. I know that this is the case for Dystopia. We have 4 people listed on our moddb profile (these are the leads of the main sections; code, art, maps, management), but our entire team is quite a bit larger.

--

Fuzzy
Manager & PR Lead
Team Dystopia
User Posted Image

Reply to thread
click to sign in and post

Only registered members can share their thoughts. So come on! Join the community today (totally free - or sign in with your social account on the right) and join in the conversation.