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ToS Change - Linden Lab Owns it ALL (Forums : Tech Support : ToS Change - Linden Lab Owns it ALL) Locked
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Sep 16 2013 Anchor

Linden Lab the recent purchasers of Desura have changed their Terms of Service. You can find the link to the ToS at the very bottom of most pages of the Desura site.

There is considerable concern amoung Second Life users as to exactly what that change will mean in the long term. You can read about the exact nature of the changes in: ToS change and content rights: Lab provides statement. The pertinant changes are highlighted. If you think the Lab's statement covers you then I suggest you read: Second Life ToS Change.

The site CG Textures has already explained and explicitly stated their textures can no longer by used on Second Life, as of Sept 6, 2013. In general most texture supply sites have similar ToS that will make using their textures with SL illegal, or at least a violation of the texture site's ToS.

Since Desura now falls under the same Linden Lab ToS as SL, that pretty much says you can't use those textures with products placed in Desura.

In the Second Life forum there are long threads about what the change means. See: Updated LL TOS Claims FULL RIGHTS to ALL CONTENT - All content meaning any thing uploaded to the service. The Lab says this ToS was updated to work across all Linden Lab products, of which Desura is one.

Edited by: Nalates

Sep 16 2013 Anchor

Activison, EA and I'm pretty sure Valve already did this YEARS ago. ;)

But what you're saying is that the company that owns Desura now owns everything they sell. Yeah, right.......

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ambershee
ambershee Nimbusfish Rawks
Sep 16 2013 Anchor

No, it's a legitimate concern and I do remember Second Life's terms being a problem in the past. However, as far as I'm aware these terms do not apply to Desura - if they did they would have to notify people (you can't just silently change an agreement you have with other parties!)

Sep 17 2013 Anchor

@ambershee - Well, click the ToS link at the bottom of the page if you think they do not apply to Desura. Then figure out which ToS does apply to Desura and let me know. Thx.

@TheHappyFriar - This is a site for indie game developers. The new ToS says everything they upload belongs to the Lab and they can do whatever they choose with it. While I don't expect the Lab to abuse Desura users, I can't say the next owner won't.

Sep 17 2013 Anchor

The big issue I'm seeing is the "Valve sued a publisher so we cover our buts now" clause. I'm not seeing anything in there that other sites don't do similar already.

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Go play some Quake 2: q2server.fuzzylogicinc.com
It's like Source v0.9, only... better!
Play Paintball for Doom 3!: d3server.fuzzylogicinc.com
Doom 3 Paintball to the Max!

Sep 18 2013 Anchor

The Lab's ToS wording, which came into effect in early August 2013, is actually remarkably similar to the "old" Desura Terms of Use. As such, the change may not be such a surprise to Desura users (and may be the model LL used for re-wording their own ToS).

The specific similarities are Section 2.3 of the Lab's "blanket" ToS (applicable to all their properties), which reads in part:

Except as otherwise described in any Additional Terms (such as a contest's official rules) which will govern the submission of your User Content, you hereby grant to Linden Lab, and you agree to grant to Linden Lab, the non-exclusive, unrestricted, unconditional, unlimited, worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, and cost-free right and license to use, copy, record, distribute, reproduce, disclose, sell, re-sell, sublicense (through multiple levels), modify, display, publicly perform, transmit, publish, broadcast, translate, make derivative works of, and otherwise exploit in any manner whatsoever, all or any portion of your User Content (and derivative works thereof), for any purpose whatsoever in all formats, on or through any media, software, formula, or medium now known or hereafter developed, and with any technology or devices now known or hereafter developed, and to advertise, market, and promote the same. You agree that the license includes the right to copy, analyze and use any of your Content as Linden Lab may deem necessary or desirable for purposes of debugging, testing, or providing support or development services in connection with the Service and future improvements to the Service. The license granted in this Section 2.3 is referred to as the "Service Content License."

Which could be compared to Section 2 of the "old" Desura ToU (last updated June 27th, 2013), which applied to any content supplied to Desura in any format (including forum posts), and which read in part:

You expressly authorise and permit Desura to exercise and to authorise others to exercise all of the rights comprised in copyright and all other intellectual property rights which subsist in the Content and you irrevocably consent to all such exercises. Desura is not required to compensate you or any other person in any manner for any such exercise or authorisation. In particular, Desura may use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the Content and other works which are based on them (including by way of adaptation or derivative works) in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, whether or not such use would otherwise be a breach of any person's moral rights, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind.

Both assign rights to pretty much do anything with UGC and for any purpose. The Lab's ToS perhaps goes a little further in explicitly stating "sell / resell", which appears only to implied in the old Desura ToU.

@ambershee It's also worth pointing out that the Lab's ToS indicates that they can make changes to the ToS - including material changes - without formal notification, which will generally come into immediate effect from the date of update / posting. They only indicate that they "may" provide notification of such changes. Previously, there was a 30-day grace period prior to material changes coming into effect, and the Lab would advise users of such material changes via a blog post. They also specify it is up to the user to check the ToS for themselves to see if anything has changed. To wit, Section 11.4 reads in part:

Linden Lab reserves the right to modify this Agreement and any Additional Terms, at any time without prior notice ("Updated Terms"). You agree that we may notify you of the Updated Terms by posting them on the Service, and that your use of the Service after we post the Updated Terms (or engaging in other such conduct as we may reasonably specify) constitutes your agreement to the Updated Terms. Therefore, you should review this Agreement and any Additional Terms on a regular and frequent basis. The Updated Terms will be effective as of the time that Linden Lab posts them or such later date as may be specified in them.

[emphasis mine]

Interestingly, the old Desura ToU doesn't actually specify how updates to the ToU were to be addressed.

TKAzA
TKAzA Community Manager
Sep 19 2013 Anchor

I believe the TOS can be updated at any time without the requirement of members re agreeing to them.

TOS wrote: By using the System you have agreed to be bound by these Terms as they then read. DBolical may modify these Terms at any time by making available through the System a new version of them. You must not use any part of the System after these revised Terms have been posted unless you agree to be bound by the revised Terms and your continued use of the System after revised Terms have been posted constitutes your acceptance of the revisions to those terms.


But those are our TOS not Desura's, we are no longer linked to linden labs.

I would just add, no TOS should violate your statutory rights, E.g.: if you wish for a item to be removed, we are legally required to.

ambershee
ambershee Nimbusfish Rawks
Sep 19 2013 Anchor

TKAzA wrote: I believe the TOS can be updated at any time without the requirement of members re agreeing to them.


In most jurisdictions, you have to notify your users.

Sep 28 2013 Anchor

A lot of companies seem to forget that if they want to provide services to other countries as well as their own, they have to also follow the laws of their target country as well as their own.

For instance, selling to the EU which both SL and Desura does do openly. I am not entirely sure about Desura but SL even has GBP and Euro's AND they take VAT on sales which is obviously European. So. They also have to follow EU regulations. (Otherwise these services may get banned from use within the EU)

Which actually then makes their ToS illegal since in the EU it is against the law to change ToS without making the user aware (fixed by changing "may" to "will") also in the SL ToS it says that these changes effect items already uploaded which is a blatant breach of the law as in the EU we would be able to say "Nope. I am not happy with these ToS. Remove MY IP from your servers. Not YOUR IP .. MY IP" and they would have to comply immediately.

Don't believe me? Look up Microsoft Competition case brought before the European Commission of the European Union. Microsoft is an American company, selling products and services to the EU yet they were brought to their knee's before the EU and MS is much much bigger than LL.

Edited by: falney

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