Team priorities Thread

Maybe it's just me, but does it seem like the convensions of modmaking are counter-productive when it comes to organization and the priorities set by manegment? I mean; a team (or just some dude who has a 'good' idea) will start trying to mass the hugest team possible without having a design document beyond a few longwinded posts in its forums, forums that alot of time went into before the core team has even discusses a workflow system. New features are always being talked about, but there is no reason to think 50% of the team in exsistence will even finish a small and reletivly unabitious mod. Few teams (that I'm aware of - tho I know they're not all like this) have maped out all the tasks they need to do.
Communication in any group project is essential and while many are aware of this, few actaully take steps to have regular and often meetings and work outside of forums and PMs. When they do they're disorganized and informal. I guess I'm just ranting here which is in itself unless, but I sometimes think I'm missing somthing with the way people in this community are safisfiyed to work in such a way. I guess it's just me.

EDIT: I'm sure you could find a thread here about a mod that is now questioning it's very premise as it is based on an exsisting IP. The idea for your mod is the reason you start it, it's like step one. Am I wrong?

Edited by: EqualPlatinum

Design documents are very important and integral to the completion of a mod, and team interest.

The scope of most mods is pretty big. The team needs to manage this into smaller, more digestable chunks so that they can complete it portion by portion, instead of trying to work on this monolithic thing at once.

I think #1 issue for a mod to succeed, is good team direction. Nobody should think design docs are a waste of time, even for little mods. If you have no concept, you essentially have nothing at all.

like building a house without a plan! (whatever you call it)

I definatley agree with you here, when someone who has minimal modding experience decides to make a mod based off a general or pre-existing idea, the mod is doomed for failure. Not because the idea is necessarily bad, but because the person with the idea cannot fathom how much work and effort it takes to complete a mod/game. This is just my opinion, but I have found that the best mod leader is a coder, because a coder has to bring all the aspects of development (modelling, animating, mapping, etc.) into uniformity.

I also think that the leisurely mentality of most mod teams is what really corrupts any project. For example, a texture artist may take his time making textures, without realizing that he affects the mapper who now cannot finish his map, now the team can't playtest the map, and the overall progress becomes halted. As farfetched as this example seems , it is often a realistic situation. This is why serious modmakers need to have a structured deadline set before they embark on any type of development. It would also be unreasonable however, for the mod leader to set deadlines for everyone considering that they probably don't posess an expertise in every field and would therefor not be qualified enough to determine how long it should take a modeller to create, uvmap, and rig a model (just an example).

Sorry for my rambling, but you have brought up a valid point I have wished to discuss for quite some time now.

*sigh* and when the coder dissapears, production halts altogether *coughcarnicoughahoycough*

Edited by: MajorPest

Hmmm.. Well, a mod doesn't have to be unique in regards of features. I think that's a general misunderstanding. You can very well use previously proven succesful features and ideas and put those to work. Of course, what I'm saying right now applies more to single-player modifications than multiplayer, but still..

For me, my mod is one big learning experience. What I've learned by now, is that having clear tasks and deadlines will indeed help your mod progress greatly. (In fact, after working with my current task-deadline system, I wouldn't want to work without anymore!) As for the deadlines: I'm a mapper and for instance don't have any modeling experience. What I simply do is set a reasondable deadline and ask the modeler if he or she agrees. I've got a tight team, mostly made up out of personal friends, and if something can't be realised in the given time, then they will be honest. If something can be done in a shorter amount of time, then they'll also honestly tell me.

Now this is a luxury that not all mods can enjoy so having someone who knows a bit of everything (which, indeed, often are the coders) will help those mods (and especially their leaders!) to create proper deadlines for all team personnel, based on personal experience and knowledge.

And yes, I know that a lot of what I'm saying right now is repeating what is already said, but perhaps it helps someone (especially the topic starter?) to see his feelings and ideas confirmed by another mod-leader who based his knowledge from previous experience.

So yerr, discuss! Or ask me questions..

Maybe it's just me, but does it seem like the convensions of modmaking are counter-productive when it comes to organization and the priorities set by manegment?

I never realised there were any actual conventions when it comes to making a mod. In fact, I still don't believe there are; how can non-existent conventions be counter-productive?

I mean; a team (or just some dude who has a 'good' idea) will start trying to mass the hugest team possible without having a design document beyond a few longwinded posts in its forums, forums that alot of time went into before the core team has even discusses a workflow system.

I see a lot of mods start like that these days. It's beyond me to be honest, I don't see how they intend to get anywhere before they know what they're even going to be doing. Fortunately, most of these projects that start like that flop or simply fizzle out from lack of work being done or things being completed in a collaborateable fashion.

New features are always being talked about,

That's one of my problems at the moment actually, I'm constantly updating things as I discover things that can be twiddled with in new and interesting ways. I guess I'm lucky my team is able to keep up with my constant additions. The real trick there is to simply not make anything that's already been done redundant unless its a definite compulsory requirement to do so, and not to significantly increase the workload for minor additions.

Few teams (that I'm aware of - tho I know they're not all like this) have maped out all the tasks they need to do.

I don't tend to do that until I know my team and my project a bit better. I've been working on CoW for three months now, and I've only just written up a 'Game Plan' for the development process.

Communication in any group project is essential and while many are aware of this, few actaully take steps to have regular and often meetings and work outside of forums and PMs. When they do they're disorganized and informal.

You try having formal meetings when you're team is located in four different continents and time zones! Mod teams tend to work in that way for a reason; it's because they can without losing too much of their sanity.

I guess I'm just ranting here which is in itself unless, but I sometimes think I'm missing somthing with the way people in this community are safisfiyed to work in such a way. I guess it's just me.

Well, you've certainly brought up a few of the common conundrums associated with the mod dev process, but if they were easily solveable, things would be done differently !

The idea for your mod is the reason you start it, it's like step one. Am I wrong?

I'd sure hope so, why else would you start one. Although that doesn't mean that the idea can't mutate into a many tentacled gribbly

Design documents are very important and integral to the completion of a mod, and team interest.

I'll agree with that, I've recently started making design documents that are so lengthy and detailed that my staff are complaining about them. But when it comes to actually doing something, they sure as hell aren't asking questions!

The scope of most mods is pretty big. The team needs tomanage this into smaller, more digestable chunks so that they can complete it portion by portion, instead of trying to work on this monolithic thing at once.

Bang on the nail, and that's always been one of my biggest issues. I like big impressive mods, but it takes big impressive coordination and planning well in advance. One thing that really needs to be done with such enormous projects is to find a way to break them down into multiple releases. I think it helps make the team think they're accomplishing something.

also think that the leisurely mentality of most mod teams is what really corrupts any project.

I think some people need to understand that making a mod is generally a leisure-time activity Although I understand the predicament. That comes down to dedication more than anything else, a dedicated team member will likely know the necessity of what he's doing. I think it's important that the mod leader resolves such problems and keeps the team produtive though, there's likely other things that also need doing, and can be done while you wait for something else to be finalised.

This is why serious modmakers need to have a structured deadline set before they embark on any type of development.

I find that a really good way of oppressing your team members. They don't necessarily want to work to your schedule, they have their lives to attend to too and don't tend to like your imposed additional schedules. Useable as a last resort and wisely I say

Can't be too strict with the schedule, but at least give your team members a general timeframe. Trying to make a mod without some sort of plan or guideline is absolutely ludacris.

Can't be too strict with the schedule, but at least give your team members a general timeframe. Trying to make a mod without some sort of plan or guideline is absolutely ludacris.

I split mine into releases to work towards, rather than time deadlines

The predicament im in atm is that do you A) spend all you time working hard producing content yourself , which can be exhausting. or b) you attempt to recruit an organise a un dedicated team which you spend all of your living hours trying to make do work (leaving no time or pateince to do any yourself.)

Yeah, organization is fantastic but if you have a team that refuses to meet repeated deadlines it's irrelevant. I think the biggest problem in the modding community is not that it's a leisure activity as others have mentioned already but they don't have the maturity to understand that joining a team is a commitment.

When RETSP was still being developed I discussed with the person I was assigning work to when they felt they could get something done and based deadlines around this. Eventually you just become jaded before realizing that 3/4 of those floating around in the modding community are 15 years old or younger and just don't have an ounce of maturity to buckle down when things that they have agreed to need to be done.

I never made a single deadline official without an agreement from the team member I was assigning it to. And guess what? It still didn't matter. I think we had maybe 18 people on the team at one time and maybe 3 of them were prompt with their assignments. Only 10 ended up doing their assignments at all.

And then maybe 2 of the remaining 8 that were eventually removed from the team due to inactivity actually gave me attitude about being removed when they hadn't done anything in months.

Edited by (in order): Chaossaber314, Chaossaber314

The predicament im in atm is that do you A) spend all you time working hard producing content yourself , which can be exhausting. or b) you attempt to recruit an organise a un dedicated team which you spend all of your living hours trying to make do work (leaving no time or pateince to do any yourself.)

Yeah, I certainly know how that feels. Dedicated staff are rare. The problem I'm now faced with is an overly dedicated team that I can't keep up with. You just can't win

I think the biggest problem in the modding community is not that it's a leisure activity as others have mentioned already but they don't have the maturity to understand that joining a team is a commitment.

Well, it's up to the leader to discriminate against potentially non-commiting members, and it's also his responsibility to keep his team in a position where they want to commit their time to the project.

Eventually you just become jaded before realizing that 3/4 of those floating around in the modding community are 15 years old or younger and just don't have an ounce of maturity to buckle down when things that they have agreed to need to be done.

Some of my best staff members have been even younger than that. Age isn't really relevant; it's the maturity issue that really makes the difference in my opinion.

Well, it's up to the leader to discriminate against potentially non-commiting members, and it's also his responsibility to keep his team in a position where they want to commit their time to the project.

You deal with the hand you're dealt. Since in most cases you don't have direct contact with team members save for instant messaging programs or IRC (which isn't direct contact) there's very little you can do save for idle threats or firing people. Talking to the immature is pointless. Talking to an immature person over the internet is worse.

Age isn't really relevant; it's the maturity issue that really makes the difference in my opinion.

Well, you're right but in general 15 year olds and younger are not mature.

That doesn't mean that there are some that are. But it also doesn't mean that there aren't some people over 20 or so that are not as well.

The majority of those on the internet, which in my experience seems to be in the 13-19 range, are simply not mature. And I actually feel it's more of a combination of maturity/life experience.

Edited by: Chaossaber314

Yup, I think if you sign on to do somthing yuou should want to do it well and efficently, but also quickly. It is not supposed to take a week, but it is not suppoesed to take two years either. As for the age thing -For me age is a factor, even if it's just that someone older will be able to make the mod a higher priority. I don't really want to be on a team with kids 16 and under as a rule of thumb, but take for instance Incursion (one of my current mods), we have like 30 people on the team. So I'm not really affected by the maturity level of say 4 14-year-olds (and the leads are adults.) But if I'm scouting out a mod that has 5 people working on it and three of them are 15 thats a different story. And I think age can be appernt in the work aswell. I don't want to generalize, but arn't the vast majority of younger concept artists sketchers? And do sketches look good, really? And is a semi-pro dev really going to want to trust a 15 year old to lead a team that is trying to put somthing together that he wants to put in his portfolio?
--Are there even 15 year old coders our there? And do I really want them in charge of that kind of work? I don't know...
Anyways since we've come all the way to debates on age, I think this thread may have run its useful course. Heh.