One Nation Under God? - Aths' vs Chris' Thread

Now if you don't know, there is a general seperation of church and state within the United States, of course few times will you actually see this. We have the pledge of allegiance which ends in "one nation, under God", done throughout public schools day after day, at least earlier grades. As well, we have people sworn in with their hand on the Bible for court, I'm sure half the people couldn't care less if it were a copy of The Hobbit, hell they might care more. We have a large variety of these instances where church and state are not so seperate, but, the question I pose is, does it really matter?

We have various groups fighting to remove "one nation, under God," from most things, schools, money, whatever they want to find, lead often by Atheists. We then have Christians and general supporters saying that it should remain and it is what our country was founded on. So, what is your view on the matter, do we need to seperate church and state, is there a necessity in understanding the religions of other cultures, we were founded on this and should we stay, or just leave it alone simply because it would be too annoying to change.

Now, the problem with this problem is that I tend to be able to debate well enough to defeat both sides from the opposing side, and often enough with the side I'm defeating, what I'm saying is, neither side has a truly strong ground and neither side can technically be considered right.

Christians have it right in saying that the country was founded "under God," as well as the fact that it would require a massive change for say money, a massive change for the opinions of people, and shift so much that we couldn't really continue, to the extent that the opposing side needs to shut up and stick with it, just ignoring it or hell, don't say it, tell your kid not to, whatever makes you happy.

The opposite side is right in that this isn't a seperation of church and state, as well as we are somewhat ignoring the religious freedoms of others. As well, the founders only knew of a time of God, their religious freedoms involved different ways to worship God, there was no concept of completely different belief structures. Muslims believe that the Christian and Jewish God (Jehovah I think for Jews, not sure, dunno much of that faith) is the same as Allah, but, this still doesn't open up to them.

I know I know, some people are going to say that we aren't stopping their right to free worship, they can always place in whatever they want, and adorn their own offices or whatever with what religious items they want, but, it really is a close-mindedness of the government to allow this, though I doubt a change will come when the man in the white house, George W. Bush, believes and pronounces he was chosen by God to lead the country. As well a few of you are probably saying that elsewhere they wouldn't have such freedoms, that ours is at least better, but, the American spirit wasn't founded on the concept of, this is at least better, it was always from the aspect of doing it the best. We don't do this enough, but, we should do it more, we should allow equal oppurtunity to everyone. In a Tampa Commisioners Meeting, a few of the commisioners walked out as the invocation was done by an Atheist "priest", who was invited by another commisioner to allow equal time. These people couldn't even remain until that was done, talk about going the wrong way.

In the end I believe it comes down to not who is right on the matter, but who is right enough to allow the other. If "under God" is removed, and all of those similar church and state problems, "God" will still remain for the Christians. Likewise, if it remains as is but nothing is added, then "God" will still not exist for the Atheists. I'd expect better from the Christians frankly, but then again, I seem to be have better Christian morales than people actually of the faith, while Atheists I would believe to tend more towards their own wants and needs.

And a side note, since when was Atheism cool? Doesn't every Atheist out there just seem to think God doesn't exist for a petty reason, or that everyone else is wrong without actual philosophical or religious thought, it merely fits them now. It really annoys me, most people would ascribe Atheist to me, but, in this sense I'd be like Karl Marx and saying "I am not a Marxist!", though not exactly the same, the fact remains that I don't want to be clumped in with those people that have sullied the idea and seem to believe that a lack of morales governed by the universe means a lack of necessity for anything, yet at the same time won't commit to their "faith" because they don't actually believe in.

Your a disgrace to the founders of the United States. You wouldn't be free if the US was made. The United States has influence all the goverments to date. Its an honor to say "one nation, under god", if you don't like it then don't pledge to the allegiance.

thats shit, i'd feel insulted if I had to say "one nation, under god"

as I have a strong disbelieve in god

I agree with ubersoldat. Its a huge honor.

I'd take the comment more seriously if it weren't directed right at me, the person that wants to quell both sides rather than cause conflict, and is reasoning that both sides should be better and simply allow the other. As well, if it were perhaps stated better I'd take this for not being serious, but instead I'd have to think you're simply flaming and can't put together a full thought on this.

If you're serious : In essence I'm thoughtful to the ideals of the founders, were they to realize the other forms of religion and take them seriously, they probably would've thought this way, however, the beginning of the nation's life truly began with the Pilgrims and their escape from religious persecution, and all these people ever grew with were various sects of the church.

Plus, the idea that I wouldn't be free if the US wasn't made, as well as its influence over the world, has no relevance to the discussion, simply because the United States has a facet, albeit a large one, that is true and good, or is powerful, does not make it correct in all aspects.

The truly powerful are not those that express their will in all and forcefully, but are those that allow others too without selfish regard. We should be powerful enough to allow for all other religions to be here without saying that Christianity is the greatest.

If I'm truly a disgrace to the founders of the United States, then they were half blind

The thing is, Who cares about the other side. If they don't like it then move to another country. Don't change something that truely means alot to the patriots of the US.

yeah. Also, the patriots happen to be my favorite fgootball team.

So you'd rather be so close minded as to tell them to leave over an issue than to attempt to resolve it in the actual fashion America had hoped to be built upon. We went to war not because that was our first idea, but because we were forced to do so. As well, being a patriot to a word is not as well as being a patriot to the ideal, if you think you care about America to the extent that you'd rather have people leave that didn't agree with your views, I think you need to be the one moving elsewhere, since it is keeping the rest of us in the dark. I've got no problem removing one nation under god, I've got no problem with it staying there, but, in fact, I don't have a problem with anyone except one type of person :

Those that have made up their minds but lack minds. You're trying to defend on the ideals you are stepping upon.

As well, the unconcious, or hopefully not concious or else you easily prove my point, wording of "Don't change something that truly means alot to the patriots of the US." tells us alot, you act as though the only patriots are those that believe in your God, as though to not is to be unpatriotic.

separation of church and state= worst thing that ever happened to america... wait no that was california, Cali is the cause of all the United States problems

it they are then they are patriots not unpatriotic. Your basically saying it is when it isn't. Thats not right.

Second, if you don't like it, don't think about it. Changing things tend to make you close minded if it involves what the US is founded upon. We were blessed from god for getting this land. Have you heard of the Manifest Destiny? I think you should read up on your history.

@hate: and guess what, Cali is a democratic state. Hmmm...

Edited by: UberSoldat

democratic or not that dosent have to do completely with religion... plus I am not talking politics, just everything bad in america comes out of California... The OC, San Francisco, movie stars, activist hippies...

Hehe, true. The troubles today isn't religion but the people that abuse it.

Yeah, I just think sep. church and state should be up to city or county councils

and yet i vote for bush.

[ A couple of pages of blank lines removed by PsychoBrat; your posts are already taking up enough room as it is... ]

If i could vote... LEts keep things the way they are shall we?

Edited by (in order): VegasTheWZAd, PsychoBrat

Why not take the pledege back to what it was

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

The "under god" was added to distinguish us from the evil commies, in 1954. I think we should take it back to teh original.

because the word america isnt in it. And its not catchy.

I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America. And to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

I think that's what arghvark was getting at.

And if we did not have a seperation of church and state, women would have no rights, there'd be no abortion, and everything we did would have to be through prayer and the belief that God wants us to do it. That's just plain retarded

Vangor is the only one here who is actually making an iota of sense. The rest of you are sounding really ignorant.

Especially silent, whose best reason for why he likes patriots is because they're his favorite football team

Edited by (in order): Karuto, Karuto, Karuto, Karuto, Karuto, Karuto

Karuto, you are for abortion? You sick son of a b****.

Yes, I am for abortion, get over it

Your a murder just you let you know. Proof that its not murder.

Yeah, I'm a murderer. I have never killed anyone in my life, I can't get pregnant, removing the egg before the baby is even born is murder. Yeah, get your thoughts straight, man. It's not like they take a knife when the child is out of the womb and stab it to death.

Edited by: Karuto

You know the founding fathers would be so for this whole get god into schools and have one set of belifies that everyone adheres to ,get real thats why they left and came to america.

Abortion is not murder take a freshly hatched baby chicken and squashe it. Now crack an egg which was worse?

Also stop calling the people who founded this country christians. They were diest ,dont know how to spell it. They belived in a hands off creator god. nothing more or less.

This country was not founded on "christian" morals. It was founded by a bunch of people who instead of standing up for their religious belifes ran to a new country. Plain and simple un-romantcied.

As for the in god we trust stuff on money fuck it who cairs. Four little words.

And this has major flame potential.

Edited by: Pengus

Thats not abortion. Thats egg removal. Abortion is getting rid of the baby when its premature, basically just when it becomes living. Basically they kill babys . Get your facts straight. Religion never wanted to have abortion in the actual days of True Religion. Now its all faith and people preaching to you of what they think. Christmas wasn't even a religious thing until some guy came up with it. Jesus ain't born on christmas. That too is a lie.

BTW, people who founded this country were christians and puritans.

Edited by: UberSoldat

Wrong on paper they were not when it came to their belifies.

And im not pro abortion because there is no such thing. Im pro choice why should i or anyonr else be able to tell anyone what they can or cant do. And its not murder im anti murder but have no problems with abortion.

Ill need some time to gather my facts.

im not saying i can verify these source but im just here to argue so.

Dimensional.com

Edited by: Pengus

Karuto wrote: I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America. And to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

I think that's what arghvark was getting at.

And if we did not have a seperation of church and state, women would have no rights, there'd be no abortion, and everything we did would have to be through prayer and the belief that God wants us to do it. That's just plain retarded

Vangor is the only one here who is actually making an iota of sense. The rest of you are sounding really ignorant.

Especially silent, whose best reason for why he likes patriots is because they're his favorite football team

Well if that is what you think I am not going to force my beliefs upon you but it is sad to see how much the church gets bashed and if anything I think that atheistic beliefs our forced upon us, through the form of television and radio, Ill admit there is a big price for true happiness but it is something that you, unfortunately will never know. Also America was founded by puritans who strongly believe in God, in fact that is the sole reason America was founded, to escape religous persecution from Europe. Some say times change and it seems as they do the times seem to get worse and worse and from a church's point of view it is obvious that the majority of American citizens are not on the right side of the cross and are falling away from Christianity daily, kind of ironic don't you think?

Edited by: Hatel3reed