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Humble Indie Bundle Finally Sells Out (Forums : PC Gaming : Humble Indie Bundle Finally Sells Out) Locked
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Dec 2 2012, 1:40pm Anchor

Cryrid wrote:Then why was that the very first thing you mentioned?

Mostly to draw a contrast. But I am personally not that upset about them not being Indie. That does not mean I necessarily dismiss those that are though.

Cryrid wrote:The hypocrisy of this statement is amazing, but fits with the general attitude of accusing people of only wanting cheap games, as if that's never happened during a sale.

How am I being a hypocrite when you were saying the entire point of the bundle was for people to get cheap games and support charity, and that was the only point? I never discounted the charity component, and you can not discount the fact that you enjoy getting the cheap games. I do not think that is me painting anyone with a very specific brush.

MrFidelmios wrote:The thing that made them special is a Bundle of indie games for charity, now they take one bundle and turn it into a non indie one and suddenly your up in flames.

Case in point, although that was from a different poster. 

kaisoku wrote:THQ is in deep trouble (primarily due to uDraw), and does a firesale of some awesome games. Granted, DRM-ridden Windows-only steam-only games, but that doesn't change this is a hell of a deal.Remember they don't claim this was a "Humble Indie Bundle", they have been doing a lot of shit recently. Be it ebooks, music, mobile games, and whatever that Double Fine thing was supposed to be.

Yes, that was experimentation I was not honestly interested in, but it still did not really break what they set out to do. This does.

John_Harrison wrote:kaisoku, you do not get their point correct. You are right, it is an absolutly good deal, but this is not what they are upset about. The way you comment does not help either. Please stop insulting. You will not reach anything in this way.

Well, thank you for that at least. 

Cryrid wrote:Nope, they needed certain things to get THOSE bundles off the ground. If AAA titles were offered from day one, such additions would not have been neccessary to see success. And linux users contributing more money means squat when all it takes is one high roller to inflate the price for everyone, especially when there are fewer purchasers to average it out over (and don't act like you're all contributing 8-16k).

So we were needed, we helped out, and now we are not part of their mission anymore? There seems to be a veneer in this argument that seems to state that you do not believe Linux or Mac gamers deserve AAA titles for some undisclosed reason. You talk about charity and support but then write off what we have done for them as being meaningless. Does this entitle us to more? Maybe, maybe not. But to be fair, it was the Bundle guys themselves that were making a big deal about our support and caring for the community.

Arstechnica.com

Cryrid wrote:This is a very, very sad argument that shows how out of thouch you are with reality. The effort it would take to rewrite VVVVV is NOTHING compared to rewriting one such as Saints Row 3. VVVVV was rewritten for the HB precisely because it wasn't going to be a difficult task for someone to handle in a short amount of time. Making sure a sidescroller like that can run on anything more advanced than a watch is nothing like getting an advanced 3d world to do the same.



I never said it was more work to port a simple game than a complex one. But it is proportionality more work to handle for a smaller team than a larger one. And it is not as difficult as you seem to think it is, especially not for experienced porters which do exist and have worked with the bundles in the past (with some of them even having worked on AAA titles before). Someone brought up the console game example, but that is an entirely different ballpark. You have to deal with completely different software platforms, different APIs, new hardware and input methods,and of course getting the rights to sell the game on consoles (which is probably most of what console porters probably end up doing).

And as I said, actual technical problems are one area where Linux and Mac gamers have shown great patience with the Bundle. Even if a port was promised eventually, with a proper rationale given for the reasons for the delays, it would have been accepted and Linux and Mac users would have bought it in droves. It is the fact that we were not taken seriously that bothers us, especially when the Bundles had that as part of their founding tenants and put so much effort in keeping that up until now.

Cryrid wrote:Oh, so you actually know your argument is a lie, yet you still insist otherwise? Good to know.

How was what I said a lie? You said that people could get the deal for $0, they can not, and I corrected you. How is that a lie? You did not check before making the claim.

MrFidelmios wrote:You know you should be complaining about other bundling website like IndieGala, or Groupees, places that need complaints, not a one time fling with a failing corporation. All in all I hope you find this entire thing foolish, there is no possible way that a bundle deal for cheap AAA games, that helps a good cause (THQ or not) that doesn't steal your credit card, can be a bad thing. There is no preset principle for someone who sets sail in a new land, and you should not feel entitled to a perfect bundle every time, there is one thing you haven't taken into consideration, it's not a Humble INDIE Bundle, its a Humble THQ Bundle. Totally different.

No, I am not upset about IndieGala, Groupees, and the like because they never set out for more. Tell me, why do they deserve complaints about doing what they have always done when the Humble Bundle breaking their values does not? What have they done to deserve your ire? Is it the copy cat of the idea from the Humble guys? Are you making a value judgment on a company which is very much within their rights to do as they please?

The whole "not an Indie bundle" argument is just playing around with semantics anyway. It was about the idea of the Humble Bundle in the past, and their past non-indie bundles set out to adhere to the same rules as the main Indie bundles did. This is different.
But yes, in of itself the THQ Bundle is not a bad thing. The Humble Bundle guys not staying true to their ideals and the values they set out for is. The two can be mutually true without cancelling each other out, and the one does not make the other one any less disagreeable. The world is not as simple as that, and not as black and white as that.

Cryrid wrote:This would be more like McDonalds having a promotion on their lobster sandwhich. They still offer Big Macs with all the toppings, and they didn't change any order that someone already paid for. But someone who doesn't like seafood is upset just because the regular hamburgers say '100% beef' (and they still are, being different sandwhiches than the mclobster whatever). And so they throw a temper tantrum in front of everyone else.

But it is not as simple as that. If McDonalds set out to offer a place to offer hamburgers and not seafood and and made a big deal about it, set it out as their ideals, and then started selling seafood, then yes it would deserve a complaint. It is not selling something that is different that bothers me - I never complained about the ebooks, the music, the Android games (and some of you have). It is them turning their backs on what they set out to do that I dislike.

Edited by: hamishwilson

Dec 2 2012, 2:22pm Anchor

IndieGala, and groupees are crap. That's really the point I was trying to make. What do you mean set out to do? They BUNDLE games for CHARITY, I E the name Humble Bundle. There is absolutely nothing wrong with them taking a single bundle and making it different. I disagree with you in the sense that they are betraying their roots, or going against their beliefs. Everything is subject to change, and sometimes you just need to accept it. Honestly reading more of your posts I am starting to think you are a beanie wearing man, who walks slowly where ever you go, smoking a cigarette with an outdated 17th century filter.  Stay out of the mainstream, it burns like fire..

Cryrid
Cryrid 3D Artist
Dec 2 2012, 3:46pm Anchor
Quote:How am I being a hypocrite when you were saying the entire point of the bundle was for people to get cheap games and support charity, and that was the only point?

Because you're pretending like it's only now that people are taking advantage of a sale. When people buy indie games for cheap and give to charity it's pure and holy to you, but when they use the exact same method to buy other games that they like which you do not, suddenly they're poor cheapskates that doom things. (The 'poor' part being offered by another poster in this thread with similar views, not your own words).

Quote:So we were needed, we helped out, and now we are not part of their mission anymore?

We we we, and yet you fuss when people 'put you into a box'?  

You weren't needed, you were never needed. You're not a precious snowflake. What was needed were people willing to buy games. As you said yourself, that comes down to an individual determining if they are getting personal value out of the exchange. You might have only cared about the drm and linux versions, that's not the case for the other hundreds of thousands of people giving money to charity and the game makers. 

Quote:There seems to be a veneer in this argument that seems to state that you do not believe Linux or Mac gamers deserve AAA titles for some undisclosed reason.

Nope. What I factually believe however, is that developers and publishers can do what they want with their own products. If they want to spend the time and money making and supporting a game for whatever systems they want, they can. But they most certainly should NOT have to go out of their way just because you're going to bawl about it if they don't do it how you wanted it. 

 

Quote:I never said it was more work to port a simple game than a complex one. But it is proportionality more work to handle for a smaller team than a larger one.

Yeah you did. You said before that THQ didn't put the effort into their games that other HiB developers have. Having a larger team doesn't negate the amount of time or effort it would take to get a product of that scale working properly with a wider ranger of software and hardware. It's not even proportionately less work as you claim; it's more work even with more people, and as a result, more money is required. It's foolish to try and compare a 2d game that was planned to be created in a span of mere weeks (and in the case of some Humble Bundles, days) to the effort that goes into creating a AAA game. 

Quote:How was what I said a lie? You said that people could get the deal for $0, they can not, and I corrected you.

No. Funny you ask that and then follow up with another lie.  I said that HB and THQ can get $0 from a donor, not that $0 was the minimum contribution required. Apparently you missed this part of the Humble Bundle (since you think it's only about linux support) but users are given the option to pay however they want. The minimum might be $1 (an identical minimum that existed on previous bundles long before you were accusing them of being money-grabbers), but you can set it to all go to charity. 


Those greedy pigs. 

Quote:If McDonalds set out to offer a place to offer hamburgers and not seafood and and made a big deal about it, set it out as their ideals, and then started selling seafood, then yes it would deserve a complaint.

And yet, that's exactly how they started. Burgers, fries, drinks and pies. An ad might have looked like Youtube.com or Youtube.com , the menu you see now being the product of expanding over decades.
The current push now seems to include having fireplaces, tvs and wifi for people to comfortably lounge around in. Originally McDonalds didn't even have seats for 14 years.

Humble Bundle is in the same boat. They offer Humble Bundles for charity and let users decide how much they want to pay, how they want to pay. What the bundles consist of, is completely up to them and whatever it takes to bring in customers. It can be an Indie game, a book, a AAA game, it doesn't matter. Each deal can have their own rules, it's not like Humble Bundles are GNU.

And really, it would warrant a complaint? The world seems to owe you more and more with every post.

Edited by: Cryrid

Dec 2 2012, 4:06pm Anchor
MrFidelmios wrote:I am starting to think you are a beanie wearing man, who walks slowly where ever you go, smoking a cigarette with an outdated 17th century filter.  Stay out of the mainstream, it burns like fire..

Please stop this. It does not better up your comment quality.
Nonetheless, hamishwilson, he hits the core when he says everything is subject to change. I do not say that they decided to leave other platforms out, more I mean the following:
(Please take the time to think about it, like I took the time to think about your arguments)
They tried out something new. Like a game sequel introduces new features, they helped THQ and used that opportunity to give away more famous games to get a wider audience for theirthelves. It is is like a owner of a club who invites some unknown bands and suddenly gets the opportunity to invite a famous band. As we know, advancing not always goes all right (Resident Evil series did some mistakes in my opinion for example). They had to take some disadvantages. Maybe they did not calculate that THQ says no to cross-plattform. They learn from it, next time they will do better (hopefully). I can understand you are upset, but please do not accuse them of betraying their ideals just because they try something.

Dec 2 2012, 9:48pm Anchor

David Rosen Defends the THQ bundle

Someone wrote:Techluminal.com

Someone wrote:With the Humble Bundle primarily focusing on indie games, the THQ bundle which is currently one, has been making some waves. People seem to be of the mind that a Humble Bundle must be “humble” that is to say indie. They think that the Bundle Makers have screwed up by allowing this atrocity of a bundle from, gods forbid, mainstream developer!But there are still some measured people on the internet and one of the happens to be David Rosen, one of the original founder’s of the Humble Bundle, and a current dev in Wolfire Games, developing Overgrowth. Now he has had no involvement with the Humble Bundle, and has had no contact on why the THQ Bundle was released, but he has posted on the Wolfire Forums defending it from the critics.His main points are that it:
  • Helps charity
  • Helps people with less money afford a bunch of big games for the holidays
  • Helps fund the Humble Store and other indie services
  • Expands the audience for future indie bundles
  • Could help THQ out of a rough spot
  • Helps prove that pay-what-you-want can work with big-budget games

With only the Steam DRM, and the fact that its windows only as a negative. This also he defends saying “there are major technical obstacle” in making it all platform, and off steam.One of the biggest points raised, with which I resonated strongly was the fact that this is not stealing the spotlight from Indie devs. Rosen says

Also, this bundle doesn’t replace any indie bundle, it is purely an addition to the bundle schedule. If there were no THQ bundle, there would be no extra money for charity, no major mainstream news event, no exciting new experiment

There is not better way to state this. This bundle stands alone, and its not like the Humble people have made a decision to never again create Indie Bundles. This is still brining money to charities, and bringing pay-what-you want games to the people! The small factor of only Windows and DRM is a small price to pay. Rosen put it succinctly ” [Was the Humble Bundle supposed to say] ‘Sorry, THQ. Sorry, Red Cross. Sorry, sick children, Sorry, poor gamers. We just can’t budge on the Linux thing.’ ”


My favorite qoute from the writer of the article

Jared wrote:People need to get off their High Indie Horses, and start viewing the gaming community as a whole, and in general just stop being so damn superiorist.

--


Someone wrote:Her?
Dec 2 2012, 9:55pm Anchor
Cryrid wrote:Because you're pretending like it's only now that people are taking advantage of a sale. When people buy indie games for cheap and give to charity it's pure and holy to you, but when they use the exact same method to buy other games that they like which you do not, suddenly they're poor cheapskates that doom things. (The 'poor' part being offered by another poster in this thread with similar views, not your own words).

Actually, have I gone after anyone for buying it? I do not recall having done so. I will have to read through the thread again to confirm, but as I recall the contention started with me complaining about the premise of the Bundle, and people rising to that fact. The worst thing I have possibly done is use an unflattering metaphor. That is not the same as going after people for buying it, or calling people hipsters or butthurts. 

Cryrid wrote:You might have only cared about the drm and linux versions, that's not the case for the other hundreds of thousands of people giving money to charity and the game makers.

Yes. That does not change the fact that the Bundle was about and advertised as serving and promoting those ideas.

Cryrid wrote:Nope. What I factually believe however, is that developers and publishers can do what they want with their own products. If they want to spend the time and money making and supporting a game for whatever systems they want, they can. But they most certainly should NOT have to go out of their way just because you're going to bawl about it if they don't do it how you wanted it. 

No, but they would have to out of their way to earn my approval, as they would for any customer. And the Humble Bundles promoted themselves in such a way to me to earn my respect by touching at larger ideals and larger concepts, commitments they had kept up until now admirably, barring a few largely technical or pragmatic hiccups. It was not me placing these ideals on them, they promoted them themselves. But yes, they are free to change their minds. That does not make it the right or proper thing to do, nor does that mean I do not have the right to criticize them for it. 

Cryrid wrote:Yeah you did. You said before that THQ didn't put the effort into their games that other HiB developers have. Having a larger team doesn't negate the amount of time or effort it would take to get a product of that scale working properly with a wider ranger of software and hardware. It's not even proportionately less work as you claim; it's more work even with more people, and as a result, more money is required. It's foolish to try and compare a 2d game that was planned to be created in a span of mere weeks (and in the case of some Humble Bundles, days) to the effort that goes into creating a AAA game.

The problem with your assertion here is that you are comparing development time and porting time, which are not the same thing. Porting a finished indie game to a platform can be just as much work as porting a finished commercial title. I am not saying it takes as much work to make an Indie game as a commercial game, I am saying the porting work involved is much the same. Games that are tied to platform restrictive middleware (such as VVVVVV was) can be a pain to port, while as some commercial AAA titles such as Prey back in the day were relatively easy. Past Humble developers had to get through these hurdles, no matter how rough or easy, because the bundle stayed true to it's cross-platform ideals. So yes, THQ did get an easier treatment as compared to someone like Terry Cavanagh. 

Cryrid wrote:The minimum might be $1 (an identical minimum that existed on previous bundles long before you were accusing them of being money-grabbers), but you can set it to all go to charity.

Okay, I think you may actually have got me on that one. I must admit that when you posted your original comment I was trying to see how it could be done where they would give a product out without the one dollar requirement and missed that possible avenue. I retract my statements on that. You actually properly responded to one of my points and proved me to be in the wrong. That is a nice first step.

Cryrid wrote:IAnd yet, that's exactly how they started. Burgers, fries, drinks and pies. An ad might have looked like Youtube.com or Youtube.com , the menu you see now being the product of expanding over decades. The current push now seems to include having fireplaces, tvs and wifi for people to comfortably lounge around in. Originally McDonalds didn't even have seats for 14 years.

Did they ever commit to not selling lobster? As I said, I never complained about the books, music, and the like, even if I personally found it to be a bit daft. I did not view it to be a problem. As long as they stayed true to the idea then it was all well and good, even though I may not have cared much about what was on offer.

Cryrid wrote:Humble Bundle is in the same boat. They offer Humble Bundles for charity and let users decide how much they want to pay, how they want to pay. What the bundles consist of, is completely up to them and whatever it takes to bring in customers. It can be an Indie game, a book, a AAA game, it doesn't matter. Each deal can have their own rules, it's not like Humble Bundles are GNU.

You know, what would have happened if they had kept everything the same, except for removing the charity component? Would that have upset you at all, even a little? It would have upset me, as it would have been an ideal broken just like any other. Why these two get special treament in your mind (charity, pay what you want) as opposed to the others (DRM free, cross platform) is an interesting question.

Cryrid wrote:And really, it would warrant a complaint? The world seems to owe you more and more with every post.

No, the world does not owe me much, but it still has to put up with my critical commentary. I can still be deeply disappointed with the world and still realize the world has full right to treat me, itself, or it's virtues badly. I don'y have to like it though.

John_Harrison wrote:Nonetheless, hamishwilson, he hits the core when he says everything is subject to change. I do not say that they decided to leave other platforms out, more I mean the following: (Please take the time to think about it, like I took the time to think about your arguments)

Believe it or not I actually try to do that with every post I read, even Cryrids. ;)

John_Harrison wrote:They tried out something new. Like a game sequel introduces new features, they helped THQ and used that opportunity to give away more famous games to get a wider audience for theirthelves. It is is like a owner of a club who invites some unknown bands and suddenly gets the opportunity to invite a famous band. As we know, advancing not always goes all right (Resident Evil series did some mistakes in my opinion for example). They had to take some disadvantages. Maybe they did not calculate that THQ says no to cross-plattform. They learn from it, next time they will do better (hopefully). I can understand you are upset, but please do not accuse them of betraying their ideals just because they try something.

They have experimented in the past without selling themselves out in the process. I have not always enjoyed what they have done but never felt the need to argue about it, as at least they were being true to themselves and the ideals of the organization (and a company is an organization) they had built from them. But this is different. They are not just trying something, they are actively subverting what they have built and turning their backs on what they had promoted. This is not just like some quibble over a change in gameplay conventions in a sequel, it is much more substantial than that. It is not about a personal quibble, it is about wider ideals like honour, substance, commitment, respect, and dignity. I bring these up because the Bundle brought them up, and that is what had always made it worthwhile. I appreciate what you are saying, but feel that you are not fully grasping the problems at play here. But I appreciate that you are trying.

figalot wrote:David Rosen Defends the THQ bundle: Forums.wolfire.com

Actually, I do like that one. If that message had been part of the launch than a lot less feathers would have been raised. I do not entirely agree with what he is saying, but it is one of the the first times someone has actually responded to the actual arguments being raised against it. For instance, bringing up real technical issues, and the fact that it does discard a lot of the Bundles original ideals and could be seen as alienating past supporters. So I give that one a pass. But that should have been argued by the Bundle guys themselves. It actually allows for real discussion on the fact, as was seen later in that thread unlike here which has largely been the spinning of wheels in the mud.

Edited by: hamishwilson

Cryrid
Cryrid 3D Artist
Dec 2 2012, 11:37pm Anchor
Quote:Actually, have I gone after anyone for buying it? I do not recall having done so.  

You've repeatedly acted as if HB and the 500000+ people supporting it are greedy, backstabbing, cheap vultures, the whole thing lacking in morals and being uncharitable. 
 

Quote:No, but they would have to out of their way to earn my approval

That much has been obvious. 
 

Quote:But yes, they are free to change their minds. That does not make it the right or proper thing to do, nor does that mean I do not have the right to criticize them for it.

It makes it the right and proper thing to do if they feel it is the right and proper thing for them to do. You can criticize it if you want, but it doesn't make your points valid or dispel the notion of your sense of entitlement. 
 

Quote:The problem with your assertion here is that you are comparing development time and porting time, which are not the same thing. Porting a finished indie game to a platform can be just as much work as porting a finished commercial title.

The problem with your assertion here is that you are thinking development and porting are two different entities when it comes to the amount of effort between what THQ has done with their games, and what an indie developer has done with theirs. Porting an indie game could be a lot of work in theory, if the game is anything like an AAA game, but largely isn't for the types of games we're talking about. If you have a game that can essentially run in a browser, it's just not going to be require the same effort to have any computer pull it off. Porting is not an easy task for games of larger scale. Case in point, Saints Row 2. That thing couldn't even run on a PC correctly. 
 

Quote:Did they ever commit to not selling lobster?

They committed to not selling lobster in their hamburgers by telling us they're made with 100% beef. Likewise, HB is on track for continuing their commitments with HIB. 
 

Quote:You know, what would have happened if they had kept everything the same, except for removing the charity component?

I'd put all my chips on saying that they'd still have more than 400000 purchases with this particular lineup (perhaps unproportionately fewer with some of the previous bundles). The biggest difference would be far fewer purchases above the listed market value of any given bundle  (when you look at the top buyers in any HB's going for thousands of dollars, you can be sure most of that is going to charity). 
 Would the removal have upset me? Not really, as long as the fact wasn't being hidden. I would assume, if charity were dropped, that the point of the bundle would be solely to help THQ out of their rough spot (which is still charitable sounding, really). And while I am in strong favour of the charity component to these sales, it wouldn't cause me to accuse them of selling out or ruining their brand, or acting as if I've been told to fuck off. At most, in this particular scenario, I'd just offer a smaller overall contribution for the bundle and give to Child's Play another way. 
 As for why charity and pay-what-you-want get special treatment in my mind, it's because that's what truly and literally makes Humble Bundles Humble. It's like a November Poppy Drive, buying apples from Scouts or attending a charity auction. Selling me games that I can play on my computer for a set price would just be a normal sale to me, there's nothing special about that. And when it is just a bunch of games with a discounted price that goes straight to the game makers like normal, and I don't happen to have a lot of interest in the games for whatever reason, I simply don't buy it (without publicly complaining about the lack of options, or feeling the need to declare my lack of participation like some kind of trophy to boast about). But if I'm generously (humbly) being given the option to set my own price and contribute to charity at the same time, then that adds quite a bit more value to games that would have otherwise just made me say 'meh' (and there's usually always some in every bundle, even this one). It's the difference between paying for something I don't really want to, and paying for something I want to (charity) and getting something I either like or at the very least am indifferent towards as a bonus (the same reason I come home from charity auctions or benefits with things I really don't need).

Dec 2 2012, 11:40pm Anchor
Cryrid wrote:
Quote: We have supported them from the beginning, but now because THQ does not give a shit about us we are suddenly a problem.

Quote:And yes, I am more committed to the "underground" than you

Quote:And now that they have just decided to silence us we have become "annoying and entitled hipsters".

 

No, sentences like that are what make you an annoying and entitled hipster. You're "being silenced" by a distributor just because you can't buy a product that doesn't even exist?  Move over Malala Yousafzai and Ai Weiwei, we have a true victim of censorship here. So brave. 

Your points are invalid without any citation. The reality is, THQ doesn't owe you squat and neither does a Humble Bundle. Where is it written and guaranteed that all of their bundles, until the end of time, would have to be drm free and cross platform?  Looking at the earlier bundles, I'm just not seeing these promises. Just because the Indie Bundles tend to have a certain deal doesn't mean every humble bundle would. 

Lol at comparing Desura collections. You're so cool.  


^This

Honestly let them sell out then. It's still decent for the windows gamer, we win either way. If they indefinitely stopped being "Humble" then there is always more websites and places to go to get your indie fix. It's not always good to have 1 single company take on everyone's responsibility.

Edited by: Icedecknight

Dec 3 2012, 12:58am Anchor

Look, I agree that they changed from their 'original' intent, as in indie DRM free, but I like it, and even better I support it, as well as charity. I will never bitch about the lack of indie in a bundle, when I am not paying a single cent to the humble tip. I will forever support Humble so long as they do not take an automatic tip. I chose to give half to devs, half to charity. To get free games and help charity is a win win. A friend showed me how kind these people are to do this, and since then I have always had their back. So you know what? I won't complain when a bad bundle comes out, because they have made so much money for charity, and helped out so many indie developers, and will probably continue to do so.

Dec 3 2012, 2:16pm Anchor

Come on, it's just one bundle. Anyway looks more like an experiment rather than a new trend.

Maxen1416
Maxen1416 Jack of all trades, Beginner at everything
Dec 3 2012, 2:28pm Anchor
feillyne wrote:Come on, it's just one bundle. Anyway looks more like an experiment rather than a new trend.

^That, also looks (hopefully)quite successful so far

--

 
Dec 3 2012, 2:40pm Anchor
Cryrid wrote:You've repeatedly acted as if HB and the 500000+ people supporting it are greedy, backstabbing, cheap vultures, the whole thing lacking in morals and being uncharitable.

And you have called me and others entitled hipsters and butthurts. But actually, there is a distinct difference between what I have been doing and what you have been doing - I have been attacking ideas and actions, not people. I have not once attacked Jeffery Rosen, John Graham, or anyone else involved with the bundle. I have not even directly attacked you, although I have been somewhat rough with you. I dislike the idea it conveys, even though I have actually admitted that as an isolated thing it is not even that bad, maybe even possibly good.

The THQ Bundle is not a bad thing. The Humble Bundle guys not staying true to their ideals and the values they set out for is. The two can be mutually true without cancelling each other out, and the one does not make the other one any less disagreeable. The world is not as simple as that, and not as black and white as that (and yes I feel the need to just recopy what I have previously posted as I never seem to get actual responses on most things).

As far as the vultures thing goes, I did not even call you one. I used a vaguely unflattering metaphor. Deal with it.

Cryrid wrote:They committed to not selling lobster in their hamburgers by telling us they're made with 100% beef. Likewise, HB is on track for continuing their commitments with HIB. 

There is a difference between a product line and the principles of an entire company. This distinction between HB and HIB is an arbitrary creation made purely for the benefit of this bundle. It was never like this in the past, and it was never stated to be like this in the past. The only thing that was said was that HIBs would stick to usual formulas while HBs could be developer specific or experimental. They never said anything about one set of values applying to one and not the rest, and indeed until now they did apply it to them all. And they promoted themselves as such.

I can not argue with your personal perception of the Bundle and what made it Humble, as one persons personal perception is just as good as any others and equally just as valid. I am glad that you derive value from it.

But the Bundles were about more than what you saw in them, in the minds of many people, and were actively promoted as such. Your comment about not buying other game bundle sales because you saw no value in them, but then not complaining about them, is not exactly a fair comparison. They never set out for more, they never promoted themselves as more, they never made themselves into more. They never expressed the values and and ideals that the bundles did, and never committed to them.

As far as your porting comment goes, yes they have tied themselves to some rather unfriendly libraries. It could still have been dealt with eventually, and actually just a promise has been good enough in the past for some Humble titles. I would also like to drop an intersting link on the subject: Cheerfulghost.com

MrFidelmios wrote:Look, I agree that they changed from their 'original' intent, as in indie DRM free, but I like it, and even better I support it, as well as charity. I will never bitch about the lack of indie in a bundle, when I am not paying a single cent to the humble tip. I will forever support Humble so long as they do not take an automatic tip. I chose to give half to devs, half to charity. To get free games and help charity is a win win. A friend showed me how kind these people are to do this, and since then I have always had their back. So you know what? I won't complain when a bad bundle comes out, because they have made so much money for charity, and helped out so many indie developers, and will probably continue to do so.

I do not complain when we get one bad bundle; there have been plenty of bundles where I was not terribly interested in the titles or items on offer, and that is what I would feel would constitute a "bad" bundle as you put it. That honestly never gave me enough good reasons to complain and so I didn't.

I do feel the need to raise issue when the humble bundle no longer becomes the humble bundle, no longer adheres to the principles they set out for it, and as such diminishes the value the humble bundle has in this world. I like the bundles just as much as you do, and that is why I care and want to keep them honest. It is like how the most patriotic person is not the one who follows their country blindly, but the one who cares enough to point out when their country does wrong, and tries to invest themselves in improving the country as a whole.

I admit that metaphor may sound a little bit pompous, but it is the most apposite one I could find. 

Edited by: hamishwilson

Dec 3 2012, 3:47pm Anchor
hamishwilson wrote:  I like the bundles just as much as you do, and that is why I care and want to keep them honest. It is like how the most patriotic person is not the one who follows their country blindly, but the one who cares enough to point out when their country does wrong, and tries to invest themselves in improving the country as a whole. 

Very well spoken.

Dec 3 2012, 4:17pm Anchor

A good analogy, but used incorrectly. Let me explain with this one, every year for Thanksgiving you receive a large pumpkin pie, every year your family shares said pie with joy. The pie is always just large enough for everyone to have a piece, and nothing more. Now one Thanksgiving your family all gets their own personal pumpkin pie. Sure it tastes the same, and maybe everyone enjoys this better, but it was a lot of work cooking all of those. So next year you are probably going to have one large pie again, but it was fun to swap it up. It doesn't mean that the mini pies were worse, or even that the large pie is better, the fact is the change was cherished by many for a fun gift. 

I embrace the change like a guest for a holiday, and I love to see them when they come around, but I don't want them to live with me all the time.

Cryrid
Cryrid 3D Artist
Dec 3 2012, 5:47pm Anchor
Quote:And you have called me and others entitled hipsters and butthurts.

Just you specifically, and you are. I did a good job illustrating the point. Pointing this out is irrelevant as I'm not the one denying it. 

Quote:But actually, there is a distinct difference between what I have been doing and what you have been doing - I have been attacking ideas and actions, not people.

You've only been accusing people of being greedy, backstabbing, cheap vultures who aren't doing this for the charity, but are instead only designed this to tell you to fuck off. We've been over this. It's as much of an attack as calling you out is an attack on your entitled hipster ideas and actions. Just because I can put a face on what's directly infront of me doesn't make you any superior. 

Quote:The Humble Bundle guys not staying true to their ideals and the values they set out for is. The two can be mutually true without cancelling each other out,

And would you look at this, that's what they've done. They didn't abandon their ideals or betray anyone, this bundle doesn't affect future indie bundles in the slightest. The world is amazingly simple sometimes when you're not busy throwing a tantrum because you didn't get your candy. 

Quote:As far as the vultures thing goes, I did not even call you one. I used a vaguely unflattering metaphor. Deal with it.

Never once said you personally called me a vulutre. How hard is reality to grasp? 

Quote:It was never like this in the past, and it was never stated to be like this in the past. The only thing that was said was that HIBs would stick to usual formulas while HBs could be developer specific or experimental.

Apparently you don't understand what "HBs could be developer specific or experimental" means. It means they can be however they want, and try different things. HBs don't have to be identical to be HBs. 

Quote:But the Bundles were about more than what you saw in them, in the minds of many people, and were actively promoted as such. Your comment about not buying other game bundle sales because you saw no value in them, but then not complaining about them, is not exactly a fair comparison. They never set out for more, they never promoted themselves as more, they never made themselves into more.

It's a perfectly fair comparison. They didn't set out for more than what they are currently doing. They're not doing it because it feels foreign and wrong. How is it that one minute you're trying to claim that humble means something different to different people, the next you're trying to push your own interpretation of it? You're not disenfranchized, you're disullusioned. 

Quote:It is like how the most patriotic person is not the one who follows their country blindly, but the one who cares enough to point out when their country does wrong, and tries to invest themselves in improving the country as a whole.

Get off your high horse. Here you go again, pretending you're the only one who actually cares about them and their one true message (coincidentally, the one you happen to say it is), with everyone else just being blind and uncaring. Metaphorically claiming they've done wrong even, wow. If you're opening paragraph was an attempt to make me sorry for calling you entitled, I'm really not. A little pompous, yeah right. This is how you think, it's no surprise you beleive the world owes you. Instead of rationally offering thoughts on what would have made the deal personally appealing you've just been accusing them of being greedy sellouts while consistently trying to sound better than the thousands that still want to support HB for what it's doing (and not coincidentally, what it has been doing even since day one). You're not the last pure patriot, only interested in helping your metaphorical country even if it means going against the grain. No, you're the type that goes out on the streets screaming succession just because the guy you voted for isn't currently in charge. 

Dec 3 2012, 6:44pm Anchor

Woah Cryrid chill man, it's okay, look I can tell you exactly what is going to happen. Next month Humble is going to release an indie bundle.Wiether he/anyone buys it is up to them, this one is simple. Buy it if you want, don't if you don't. HB is not betraying their ways or their roots, they set out for charity, and in the end that is what it is all about helping your fellow man in his worst days. So unless anyone here has a problem with helping out one another, than I suggest we lay this topic to rest, neither side will win here.

Dec 3 2012, 7:33pm Anchor
MrFidelmios wrote: I suggest we lay this topic to rest, neither side will win here.

Actually, that might be wise in the end, as at this point the topic has mostly evolved into us critiquing what we think of each other, or at the very least, me and Cryrid critiquing what we think of each other, which is not exactly useful or helpful. What little else of the conversation that remains is based on different interpretations of what the bundle is or should be based on according to our own rigid conventions, and I do not seem to be able to shake Cyrid's and he has certainly not been able to shake mine, so there seems very little point in belabouring the point any longer. So yeah, I have other things I need to be doing, such as getting ready for my imminent Physics test. *starts reading again about wave/particle duality*

Dec 3 2012, 10:20pm Anchor

lol I'm in quantum mechanical theories like Quantum Molecular tunneling. Magical electrons man.....

Dec 3 2012, 11:30pm Anchor

Look, I am going to simply sum up exactly why the thread starter is wrong, and it will only take one sentence:

The Humble Bundles DO NOT HAVE TO BE INDIE; just because that was how they started doesn't mean that is how they always must be.

In case I wasn't clear before: THE HUMBLE BUNDLES DO NOT HAVE TO BE INDIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Get that through your thick skull, and take advantage of this amazing way to give money to charity and get AAA games for basically nothing!  What a stuck-up, close-minded, selfish asshole...

Dec 4 2012, 12:29am Anchor

And another person who clearly did not read through most of my arguments and complaints in the thread...

But I do not see the point in restating them. I think I will let this rest.

MrFidelmios wrote:lol I'm in quantum mechanical theories like Quantum Molecular tunneling. Magical electrons man.....

Well, I am only doing high-school physics at the moment. Still, at least we do go past 1905. :)

Edited by: hamishwilson

Dec 4 2012, 1:04am Anchor

Hey uhh Hulk, chill the fuck out, arguments over. Sorry, your about a day late.

Cryrid
Cryrid 3D Artist
Dec 4 2012, 5:54pm Anchor
Quote:Woah Cryrid chill man,

There's nothing in my words to suggest any extreme emotion, unless you read sarcasm in an angry voice, or mistake the words I had been directly quoting.
"Chill the fuck out" sounds pretty unchill though ;)

Quote:neither side will win here


I disagree. I know certain news stations lately seem to feed the notion that there has to be a winner to every thing, but this isn't a boxing match where someone emerges by the end of the night, and really you have the wrong attitude if you enter a message board expecting to win anything. This is a planted seed, and those take time. The stubborn can stay that way for a while, but they can still reflect in the future. 

A last point to consider if you're going to insist on burying your heads in the sand pretending you're no longer participating in this thread:

Humble Bundle has, in the past, included bonuses that required Windows. Humble Bundle has, in the past, had a bundle that consisted soley of five albums (with more being unlocked as time went on). There was never any uproar, no threads started to call them greedy sellouts. This could very easily be considered another Humble Bundle of the past, featuring 5 DRM-free albums that include some bonus games that require windows as well. But for a few, it's not, and the only clear difference that can be drawn this time around is that it's a larger name being humble with their offerings. Keep that in mind if you wonder why you've gotten the replies you have been, and still are.

Dec 4 2012, 6:14pm Anchor
Cryrid wrote:I disagree. I know certain news stations lately seem to feed the notion that there has to be a winner to every thing, but this isn't a boxing match where someone emerges by the end of the night, and really you have the wrong attitude if you enter a message board expecting to win anything.

On that at least I can agree. Not much else, but I might as well go out ageeing with you on something.

Dec 4 2012, 7:47pm Anchor

I meant chill out in the sense that a single post is like an essay here. It's cool to get passionate about something you care about. Really it is, but this topic dies.

On a far side note, excluding this one, what was the best bundle you own? I think mine was V, it was my first one, and I bought it solely on how cool Bastion looked.

Dec 4 2012, 9:22pm Anchor

The one I got the most enjoyment out of is actually the Frozenbyte one, but I have also got a lot of hours invested in Dungeons of Dredmor (Introversion Bundle). I played through most of Steel Storm, which so far is the only title I have played out of HIB3 (ironic considering the games developer regrets being a part of the Bundle) and I have played through both Amnesia and Psychonauts from HIBV. I am currently going through Rochard from HIB6, and will get around to playing through Torchlight at some point just to see why people love Diablo so much. I would have enjoyed the first HIB if I had it, since I love both Penumbra and Lugaru, but in the end I got those separately.

Really need to play more of the games I own, actually.

Edited by: hamishwilson

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