Do you need free professional art for your game? Thread

... be realistic. If someone is that good, they're not going to work for free. But it is possible to become good during the project. Which I imagine was the purpose of the project and not some fantasy about becoming rich and famous through kickstarter or steam greenlight.

Asking for a portfolio, when you're not offering to pay is demeaning.

Can you show them your portfolio? Obviously not, because you're just starting too, so appreciate that anybody at all has offered to help you with your project.

People ask for free help then they do their best to reject any offer of help. How will that ever help you make your game?

Lastly, if you're trying to make a game with as little help as possible, you'll eventually realize you are in way over your head and will start trying to scramble for extra assistance at the last minute.

At the end of day, if someone has a portfolio worth showing, they are well on their way to getting a real job, not looking for free gigs, they're past that point. Enthusiasm for game development & learning is what they should require to qualify to be part of your project.

I think people's perception of game development is that it is easy and can be done in almost no time at all. You're not going to make your AAA+ game with a small team. You won't be able to make it a complete game either - but what you can do; is make a demo, and this might lead you into a job, or get finance for the full game, then you can start asking for a portfolio and seeking professional paid staff... yet, until then, maintain your ambition but don't get your hopes up too high or you won't get as far as could have.

Art takes a long time, the more art, the more artist you need.

Edited by: BrianRhineheart

BrianRhineheart wrote:

... be realistic. If someone is that good, they're not going to work for free.

Not true. Latest example: Moddb.com

BrianRhineheart wrote: But it is possible to become good during the project.

Art is a skill, which needs an incredible amount of time to get better at. You make it sound way too easy.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

Asking for a portfolio, when you're not offering to pay is demeaning.

This is just wrong.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

Can you show them your portfolio? Obviously not, because you're just starting too, so appreciate that anybody at all has offered to help you with your project.

Not having a portfolio does not mean that one does not have a solid plan. And if they do not have a plan, they should not be recruiting yet anyway.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

At the end of day, if someone has a portfolio worth showing, they are well on their way to getting a real job, not looking for free gigs, they're past that point.

Not true and believe me, every artist wishes that it would be as easy to get a job as you make it seem here.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

I think people's perception of game development is that it is easy and can be done in almost no time at all. You're not going to make your AAA+ game with a small team. You won't be able to make it a complete game either - but what you can do; is make a demo, and this might lead you into a job, or get finance for the full game, then you can start asking for a portfolio and seeking professional paid staff... yet, until then, maintain your ambition but don't get your hopes up too high or you won't get as far as could have.

Art takes a long time, the more art, the more artist you need.

You are always putting emphasis on doing real talk here, to be realistic, yet you are even mentioning that a demo might lead to a real job in the industry or get money to pay professional staff. People, who are able to pull this off, going from total beginner to finishing a demo that lands them a job, did not need this advice in the first place, because they are the people, who prepare themselves in any way they can before even starting a concept.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

Art takes a long time, the more art, the more artist you need.

Programming takes a long time, the more programming needs to be done, the more programmers you are going to need. This is an equation everyone can solve, I think.

Best wishes,

Kjell

Edited by: iqew

Hi Kjell, did I get you at a bad time again? LOL

I can always count on you to boost my confidence. You're so eager to counter-argue; you don't even read what I write. LOL.

I am still looking forward to you writing an article about your experience as an indie game dev, because that will have substance.

Anyway, I didn't say anything was easy. Read it again. Exceptions to the rule is very rare, like winning the lottery. There are easier ways to make the experience beneficial and it starts with being down-to-earth, not with a head-in-the-clouds. Enthusiasm shouldn't go to waste.

I don't know why you're trying to marry 'portfolio' with 'plan'. There not the same thing and are unrelated to what I'm talking about.

Imagine asking for help, for free, but then saying "I want to make sure you're good enough, before I let you help me." The other person may think you're ungrateful and egocentric and therefore not very fun to work with. Even if they go ahead and help anyway, they'll probably discover it to be true and abandon the project later. Free projects are hobbyist projects - not real businesses and should be treated as such. When things start to get momentum, then it's time to get serious. Until then, it should remain a fun learning experience.

You're probably busy, but there is a growing trend of people asking for help with totally unrealistic goals. That is who this thread is for.

I'm beginning to sense that you still feel hurt that your project didn't take off. Dwelling on it won't help you change that result. AAA studios hire hundreds of people to make their product a reality. They also know the importance of being flexible in order to survive in the industry. Things to take to heart.

Advice for newbies: Aim to make a demo, learn from it, then go from there.

Some people use it as a portfolio booster I have had some pretty good artists like Kjell work on my game Cadalion Online

Only just found out I have to update my profile on ModDB as well.

*Ahem*

I think what it really comes down to is the belief by the project-creator that the first game will create money. From there, priorities start to become distorted.

For some reason, with regards to unpaid-projects, I think money should be the last thing motivating the group. I'm sure you'll think I'm wrong and correct me on this. :-)

Once a first-time project-creator thinks to themself there is money to be made based on their idea, their ego convinces them they are no longer an amateur and start demanding "only the best for me", choosing a name and calling it a company or studio before it's registered as a legal entity, demanding to see 'portfolios' from other amateurs, requesting NDA's be signed, demanding a minimum amount of the person's personal time (not recommending, but demanding), posting 'position filled/closed' prematurely.

All of this would serve only to limit the project's potential. Where as open collaboration would accelerate the project towards its potential.

Naturally you're welcome to prove me wrong, and when you do, I'll congratulate you on your success.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

Hi Kjell, did I get you at a bad time again? LOL

Bad time? Why?

BrianRhineheart wrote:

I can always count on you to boost my confidence. You're so eager to counter-argue; you don't even read what I write. LOL.

I am not eager to counter-argue, I wish I could agree with your points, but the information you are giving is mostly wrong.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

I am still looking forward to you writing an article about your experience as an indie game dev, because that will have substance.

As I already mentioned in the the other thread, if you want to have a conglomerate of my experiences, read the document I added to your other thread: Moddb.com

BrianRhineheart wrote:

Anyway, I didn't say anything was easy. Read it again. Exceptions to the rule is very rare, like winning the lottery. There are easier ways to make the experience beneficial and it starts with being down-to-earth, not with a head-in-the-clouds. Enthusiasm shouldn't go to waste.

You are failing to see my point. You don't have to actually say the words "it is easy" to say that something is easy. I wrote that you make it seem like it is easy, I never said that you worded it that way.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

I don't know why you're trying to marry 'portfolio' with 'plan'. There not the same thing and are unrelated to what I'm talking about.

I am not trying to "marry" them and they are definitely not the same thing, that's what I was saying, read it again.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

Imagine asking for help, for free, but then saying "I want to make sure you're good enough, before I let you help me." The other person may think you're ungrateful and egocentric and therefore not very fun to work with.

An artist, who is butthurt about handing out their portfolio for quality assurance beforehand is failing as an artist in the industry due to his/her immaturity. You seem to neither have any experience as an artist yourself in that field nor experience working with artists with a professional/mature attitude.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

Free projects are hobbyist projects - not real businesses and should be treated as such. When things start to get momentum, then it's time to get serious. Until then, it should remain a fun learning experience.

There is no reason to not treat the project as real business from the get go. In addition, you are saying that a real business project is not a fun learning experience, which is absurd.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

You're probably busy, but there is a growing trend of people asking for help with totally unrealistic goals. That is who this thread is for.

This thread is not helping said people with their goals. At no point did you give good advice on how to formulate realistic goals for a project. Here is some material, which is actually helpful: Management by objectives, Strategic planning, PDCA. You may also want to have a look at the SMART-method (this goes in a similar direction). Also, knowing scrum as a developer is a big plus for future work-relationships and jobs in the real world in general.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

I'm beginning to sense that you still feel hurt that your project didn't take off. Dwelling on it won't help you change that result.

I do not know what you mean with "taking off". The project enjoyed a lot of attention and received massive amounts of positive feedback from people on ModDB/IndieDB and people from the industry and the press. The game did not get released yet, but that is no problem for me. We reached the milestones we had planned at that time, which was the greatest christmas gift I wished for.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

AAA studios hire hundreds of people to make their product a reality. They also know the importance of being flexible in order to survive in the industry. Things to take to heart.

Some studios, which release AAA titles have a staff of around 50-100 people. They only hire more people, if they work on multiple titles at once.

BrianRhineheart wrote:

Advice for newbies: Aim to make a demo, learn from it, then go from there.

Finally some real advice.

I ask you once again, because you did not answer my questions the last time: Where is your experience coming from? To me it seems like you are basing your advice on your opinion and feelings about the topic alone, which is not the foundation you should have in order to give advice.

Best wishes,

Kjell

Edited by: iqew

Hi Kjell

I would have been a bit disappointed if you didn't reply. :-)

I've had a read of that article and it is good stuff. Very good stuff. It doesn't even need to be rewritten - it is excellent the way it is.

My 'experience' is my observations in general and reading the experiences of others; both pros & indies. Most of them go into detail about their stresses, breakthroughs, unplanned luck and of course, measure of success by the number of sales. But they don't go into the kind of details like you did in that article. It puts things into their proper perspective and is the most sensible approach to Indie Game Development.

That article was definitely mandatory reading for myself.

BR

Huh,

I can't help getting the sense that this thread is in response to some sort of bad experience that involved disrespectful treatment of the OP, or a continuation of some sort of personal discussion.

Beyond that, I'm not quite sure what's the point here.

Is the argument in question that "artists" and or creative types of any kind (especially graphic artists) must never work for "free" since if a project can't pay them money, it's not a project worthy of their time?

And if you get artists to work for free on a project, the leads/ management have no right to critique the work, expecting revisions, tweaks, adjustments, redoes, since they should be so grateful their getting free help, all quality standards can be disregarded?

If you the OP have an issue with a specific person's management and feedback technique then please take it up in private.

And TBH, observations and reading others' experiences and shared wisdom is called "Research"

"Experience" is actually taking an active role in an organization, and their goals for a set period of time.

Would you call the spectators at a sporting event "participants"?

As I said before, sounds like there is something else going on here.

If your upset that there are loads of unprofessional wannabees, hoping to get into gamedev, despite not having concrete skills, then sure, welcome to the community bud, most of us spend a lot of time veting people who say they want to join, and then do nothing and say, (decide to start a Dota 2 game during a scheduled Staff meeting, and then disrupt it half way through by cheering= I know, actually happened to me, booted him soon after)

Dude, we get it, there are loads of people who don't know what they're doing in this field, and some of the vets (me among them) see it as part of our duty to find out who are the serious and dedicated ones with potential, and others who are just get rich quick "Idea guys".

Ya, you can continue to be bitter, and lash out at people, who may or may not be giving you the "Respect" you think you "Deserve" or you can put that energy into bettering yourself and your craft.

But please, don't go and preach how all good game dev projects "must" be paying people for their work, and those that can't are delusional and never going to be successful.

With such an argument, I actually question whether you understand why people make mods, with mods, payment is not an option, not because we're cheap bastards, who don't respect the worth of art, but because we are contractually restricted to make no money.

And if you want to go and say, mods are worthless, and no good quality mods exist, then you might as well stop, since you're going to alienate the moddb community, and proven how out of touch you are.

It sounds like you don't quite understand what "passion"(in a activity/ career context) is about, leading me to the possibility that you're not a true artist.

A true Artisan of any craft does what they do, regardless of the financial gain, sure if there real good, they will accept financial payment, but money is a means to the end of honing their craft.

Please dude, your digging yourself a hole, TBH, from just seeing your tag of 3D modeler & Animator, I would have considered contacting you, but from your style of communication, I don't think I would trust you on my volunteer project.

You have a scarcity mind set, and sure, those who are so good, they can ask for payment, but I've had several professional grade (say only payed projects) people tell me they'd consider waving that for the opportunity to work with a team that could produce such quality.

Sorry bud, with all this ranting on others not making the cut, you might have just showed us why you potentially won't make the cut.

Those who can get paid for their craft aren't Gods, who must only accept payment in the form of gold, frankincense and mere, they just have pressing bills to pay, and the will skill and dedication, that others see their worth in a monetary value. Unpaid projects are not beneath them, their just in a different classification. (If you actually think they are, then your the one who's a bit out of touch and inexperienced.)

Edited by: GeneralJist

Are you expecting me to write the most diplomatic post I could possibly write?

People want their project to be successful. Yeah, so?

When person 'A' says "I need art help, for free." after which person 'B' say "Sure I'll help.", you'd expect person 'A' to say "Great!" but not "We need to see examples, first." & "You have to produce on a regular basis." It's volunteer work. It's good will. It's experience.

If the art is good, it's good, if it's not, no big deal - it - can - be - worked - on. What you're really asking for is a person's time. If they offer it for free, that's a bonus. It's a positive thing. If they keep the promises they make, then great, if not - it's worth asking them if they're heart is still in it. But if you want a pro for free, then I'm sorry, you're dreaming. But if you happen to be so lucky, be ecstatic because it's very rare.

@GeneralJist Would you have actually asked for my help, or just considered it? You sound upset by my 'reality-check' post. When you become rich & famous - then come back to me and say "You were so wrong, dude!" - until then, I have to side with what experienced people have said about their experience; both from pros & indies. They tell it like it is and their experiences tend to be common ones.

You want me to add a disclaimer saying "There are exceptions." That won't help people make their project successful. Those exceptions are very rare.

These volunteer projects are collaborations, not Master-Slave working relationships. There is too much emphasis on "It HAS to succeed - It HAS to generate money, later." You're putting too much pressure on yourself then it crossovers over to other people. They may or may not be able to carry the weight of the group. They may be able to and still decide not to do so for multiple reasons whenever money is involved. If their heart is in it, they'll be willing to stay with the group and see the project through, regardless. [I'm going to stop here, because this post is starting to get a bit long.]

Kjell AKA iQew, wrote an excellent article (in detail), on Google Drive, and it's one of the best I've read about Indie Game Development. (Provided he hasn't edited since I read it.)

If you don't like what I'm saying, I recommend reading that document.

@GeneralJist after you've had some time to cool, I think you'll feel a bit embarrassed by what your wrote.

If you're looking for an ego boost from me, you gotta prove what you say.

And speak for yourself, don't just write "I think you're saying this" - quote what I said, not re-write it to suit your view.

The question you should be really asking yourself is: Would you prefer that someone spend their free time working on their 'portfolio' or spending that time on YOUR project instead?

You gotta keep an open mind.

It's a bit like "ask and you shall receive" but when what you ask arrives, you say "Nah. Go away."

If a job is intended for kickstarter, for example, it should be posted under [Paid] and needs to be very upfront about the conditions of that pay and the deadlines that are expected to be met. Then you have a chance of attracting professional people.

If however it is unpaid work, with pay/kickstarter as an after-thought, the recruitment process is very different.

I think there are two categories of projects, when it comes to no-budget titles. The first category contains projects, which are only created to gain experience, the journey is the reward. The other category contains projcts, which aim towards a release date. In your advice, you do not differentiate between the two. Your view on serious projects is absurd. This also goes for your view on the way project leaders work with artists. The concerns you mention here seem to have raised from your own bad experiences and are not based on facts. If they do, show your sources. I agree with everything GeneralJist has brought up and I do not understand why you recommend my article to him, his understanding of game development is realistic and also based on first-hand experience. In fact, he was one of the first persons, who read my article and discussed it with me. I recommend that you start a serious project yourself to calibrate your perspective.

Best wishes,

Kjell

Edited by: iqew

Sigh,

Dude really? this is going to be an experience measuring contest?

Fine.... uhhh, but before I go into that.

1. You do know that article your treating as a bible was written at least 4+ years ago, right? (ofc, it's a good article, and I have the original version, without the mind world logo and original title) But sure, Iqew did a nice job, and sure he does good work, it sounds like your trying to suck up to him since he critiqued your other post, and now you know who he is, and you're doing a backtrack.
2. "I have to side with what experienced people have said about their experiences?" so, where is your experience? sure, any sensible person can read anothers' account, and find wisdom and value from it, that's what "Learning" is about. But it's always best to learn 1st hand, then vicariously.
3. Ask your friend Drexanz what kind of person I am, if you don't want to have a civil conversation, I've been doing game dev for 3+ years bud, and been around the block a few times, and helped hin apparently realize who he is.
4. Yes, would I have tried to recruit you, just based on your tags, I might have sent you a message, getting to know you, to see if we'd be a good fit, but it's clear we'd not be one, so, that ship has sailed.
5. Dude, I haven't even broken a sweat on this thread, and wasn't upset at all, I'm annoyed, and slightly amused by your comments.
6. How diplomatic you choose to be is entirely up to you, I stand behind every word I say, every word I type, every move I make, I live my brand every day, and represent myself and others when it is appropriate. So please dude, I'd advise you to just get off your theoretical high horse, before you dig yourself a deeper hole.
7. In portfolio vs. project commitments, you somehow fail to make the connection that they may not be mutually exclusive. A cool portfolio, with work you did all by yourself is nice and all, but a project shows you can take those skills, and put it to a team's purpose. The ladder is what the industry and the rest of the work world is really looking for.

(I used to work with this guy, decent artist, great coder, terrible teammate, and despite his fundamental contributions to the project, the last quality is what forced us to part ways, he still hasn't learned how to be a good teammate, and thus he works alone on his own project/ portfolio. He has all the makings of a great game developer, however his communication, collaboration and personality oversights, are holding him back)

IDK your skill level, but if you continue to interact with others of the community in such an abrasive manner, others may decide you display communication, collaboration, and personality quirks they don't want to deal with on a professional level.

Another example: Back in January I brought on an excellent 3D animator, however, he refused to use 3DS Max, required for animation for our project, he stuck with Maya. He even tried to get us to change to unity, since that is what he was very good in. So, after a heated conversation, in which he tried to turn my co lead & lead artist (which we've been working together for 3+ years against me, we cut him loose, I even tried to secure another position for him on another team, but when that lead heard about his poor communication and collaboration skills, he didn't want him, despite them using unity and Maya.

So, the above are 2 summarized "Experiences" I've dealt with. So please, stop being so theoretical with your so called "experiences", which I'd consider "perspective research", and go be part of a project that you can tell legitimate stories about. (if you can't tell a story about your experiences, then you haven't really experienced anything.

1. As for expecting volunteers to complete their work on time, well ya, if you're not paying them, those deadlines can't be "enforced", however, as most in this field know, most of game dev, especially art, is a pipeline, meaning, a person can't do a specific task, unless the prerequisite tasks are done on that piece. So if the assets' bones are not right, it can't be animated properly, and until it's animated, sound FX can't be synced. (It sounds like to me you don't understand or believe in Type B personality managers, thinking Type A people, and their tactics are the best way to go)

Your claiming that if you sign on for free to do anything, expectations of reasonable communication & discipline can be demoted and discounted, and any pushing on management/ leadership's part is unreasonable and not acceptable for volunteers.

Your essentially trying to tell us that people shouldn't have work ethic if they're not getting paid, saying you may have little work ethic in these situations, ergo, telling us, your potentially not a good match for game dev at all.

An experience is only exactly what you make of it.

If you want to fill in a time sheet, and say you showed up, did your work, when you felt like it, and left at the end of the day, then sure, or do you want to say you came in every day early, worked with both quality and quantity in mind, and stayed late to finish, going the extra mile.

People will only take you as seriously as you take yourself, and if your work ethic is so flawed, that you think volunteers don't need quality standards, schedules, and basic rules/ expectations as well as mutual respect, then your far from ready for game dev, internships, nonprofit, any kind of work that doesn't have money as the main motivation.

I'm willing to bet a few things based on your responses:

1. Your 18 or under
2. You've not yet been in a management position
3. You have not yet started a projectof your own.
4. Your motivation for doing game dev is mainly monetary, and less artistic fufillment
5. You've been doing game dev less than a year
6. Your an introvert who's verbal and writing skills aren't typically persuasive.

I'm not trying to be critical of you, but it feels like your coming in here with a huge ego, and then just lashing out at others who you don't know their qualifications, which is a bit immature TBH.

(For my project, look at my sig above)

Edited by: GeneralJist

iQew wrote:

The concerns you mention here seem to have raised from your own bad experiences and are not based on facts. If they do, show your sources. I agree with everything GeneralJist has brought up...

You agree with EVERYTHING he says? Big surprise.

My "bad" experiences. LOL

Did you really write that article? Sure you didn't plagiarize?

When you're rich & famous and win countless awards, be sure to come back and brag about it to me.

Oh, and most of all, one day, when I come 'begging' to you for a job, remember to savour the moment and remind me how "wrong" I was.

At least you guys are giving me a good laugh.

Talk about big egos. Wow!

You can't argue on merit so you try an age old method of criticising the person instead.

Either that, or you just love "being right" too much.

I bet - you'll love this - I bet if I wrote your words - you'd argue with me not knowing I was actually quoting you. HA-HA!

GeneralJist wrote:

Sigh,

Dude really? this is going to be an experience measuring contest?

Nope. You're the only the only one doing that.

GeneralJist wrote:

1. You do know that article your treating as a bible was written at least 3+ years ago, right? (ofc, it's a good article, and I have the original version, with out the mind world logo) But sure, Iqew did a nice job, and sure he does good work, iy sounds like your trying to suck up to him since he critiqued your other post, and now you know who he is, and your doing a backtrack.

Your words. Your assumptions. Your subconscious thoughts. NOT mine.

GeneralJist wrote:

2. "I have to side with what experienced people have said about their experiences?" so, where is your experience? sure, any sensible person can read anothers' account, and find wisdom and value from it, that's what "Learning" is about. But it's always best to learn 1st hand, the vicariously.

Yeah. What a waste of time learning from successful people.

GeneralJist wrote:

3. Ask your friend Drexanz what kind of person I am, if you don't want to have a civil conversation, I've been doing game dev for 3+ years bud, and been around the block a few times.

Cool. I was accepted as 'friend' kind of by accident. I was just looking to help people for free on available projects. Yet to get a reply.

GeneralJist wrote:

4. Yes, would I have tried to recruit you, just based on your tags, I might have sent you a message, getting to know you, to see if we'd be a good fit, but it;s clear we'd not be one, so, that ship has sailed.

Doubtful.

GeneralJist wrote:

5. Dude, I haven't even broken a sweat on this thread, and wasn't upset at all, I'm annoyed, and slightly amused by your comments.

Why don't you read some of the stuff you wrote. Looked that way to me.

GeneralJist wrote:

6. How diplomatic you choose to be is entirely up to you, I stand behind every word I say, every word I type, every move I make, I live my brand every day, and represent my self and others when it is appropriate. So please dude, I'd advise you to just get off your high horse, before you dig yourself a deeper hole.

What horse? I'm here. Where's everyone else who keep posting 'help-wanted' ads?

GeneralJist wrote:

7. in portfolio vs. project commitments, you some how fail to make the connection that they may not be mutually exclusive. A nice portfolio, with work you did all by yourself is nice and all, but a project shows you can take those skills, and put it to a team's purpose. And the ladder is what the industry is really looking for.

So? Why ask for a portfolio if instead that time could be used toward the project and by default become part of a person's portfolio? Everyone's got to start somewhere.

GeneralJist wrote:

(I used to work with this guy, decent artist, great coder, terrible teammate, and despite his fundamental contributions to the project, the last quality is what forced us to part ways, he still hasn't learned how to be a good teammate, and thus he works alone on his own project/ portfolio. He has all the makings of a great game developer, unfortunately, his communication & collaboration skills are holding him back.)

I'm sure your side of the story is all I need to know.

GeneralJist wrote:

IDK your skill level, but if you continue to interact with others of the community in such an abrasive manner, others decide you display poor communication and collaboration skills.

Yep. I'm a poor communicator/collaborator. If they don't believe me, I'll just say "Ask, GeneralJist. He knows me better than anyone. Perception is everything."

GeneralJist wrote:

Another example: Back in January I brought on an excellent 3D animator, however, he refused to use 3DS Max, required for animation for our project, stuck with Maya. He even tried to get us to change to unity, since that is what he was very good in. So, after a heated conversation, in which he tried to turn my colead& lead artist (which we've been working together for 3+ years to his side, we cut him loose, I even tried to secure another position for him on another team, but when that lead heard about his poor communication and collaboration skills, he didn't want him, despite them using unity and Maya.

Good story but how does that make me wrong? Why is so important to you to prove me wrong?

GeneralJist wrote:

So, the above are 2 summarized "Experiences" I've dealt with. So please, stop being so theoretical with your so called "experiences", which I'd consider "perspective research", and go be part of a project that you can tell legitimate stories about. (if you can't tell a story about your experiences, then you haven't really experienced anything.

Call me when you're in the big leagues and let me know how "wrong" I was.

GeneralJist wrote:

8. As for expecting volunteers to complete their work on time, well ya, if your not paying them, those deadlines can't be "enforced", however, as most in this field know, most of game dev, especially art, is a pipeline, meaning, a person can't do a specific task, unless the prerequisite tasks are done on that piece. So if the assets' bones are not right, it can't be animated properly, and until it's animated, sound FX can't be synced.

So you try to agree with me for once, but then you try to find a way to say I'm wrong.

GeneralJist wrote:

Your claiming that if you sign on for free to do anything, expectations of reasonable communication & discipline can be demoted and discounted, and any pushing on management/ leadership's part is unreasonable and not acceptable for volunteers.

I'm "claiming"? Putting words, again. "to do anything"? Quote, please.

GeneralJist wrote:

Your essentially trying to tell us that people shouldn't have work ethic if their not getting paid, saying you have little work ethic in these situations, ergo, telling us, your potentially not a good match.

More of your subconscious thoughts. Not mine.

GeneralJist wrote:

An experience is only exactly what you make of it.

If you want to fill in a time sheet, and say you showed up, did your work, when you felt like it, and left at the end of the day, then sure, or do you want to say you came in every day early, worked with both quality and quantity in mind, and stayed late to finish, going the extra mile.

People will only take you as seriously as you take yourself, and if your work ethic is so flawed, that you think volunteers don't need quality standards, schedules, and basic levels of work ethic and respect.

When did I say that? See what I mean by re-writing what you think I'm saying?

GeneralJist wrote:

I'm willing to bet a few things based on your responses:

A. Your 18 or under

B. You've not yet been in a management position

C. You have not yet started a project f your own.

D. Your motivation for doing game dev is mainly monetary, and less artistic fufillment

E. You've been doing game dev less than a year

F. Your an introvert who's verbal and writing skills aren't typically persuasive.

I'm not trying to be critical of you, but it feels like your coming in here with a huge ego, and then just lashing out at others who you don't know their qualifications, which is a bit immature TBH.

Wow. 6 out of 6 incorrect.

You're using me as an excuse to bring out some buried issues within yourself.

All we're asking is for you to provide concrete examples of your issues, if you can't do that, there's no point in having this discussion.

It's called profiling , from the limited info I have.

And your perspective is non substantive, all your doing is if we tell you something, then you question the source, and if it happened like that at all, dude, if you don't believe me, there is nothing I'm willing to do to convince you.

I have an entire team of ~15 people and 3 years of written and recorded records, documenting said occurrences, sure, say those are worth nothing, and go talk to the one person that is not welcome:

Moddb.com

Go, I dare you to send him a pm, linking him to this thread, quoting me, and go ask him how things went down, I have a feeling you 2 may get along famously.

But then again, you'd be getting into something far over your head, which in no way concerns you, talking about things you think you understand because you read it somewhere, hmmm

sounds familiar?

I have no idea what your deal is, but lets agree to be nemesis, disagreeing for disagreements sake, it will be like we're actually colleagues, and that's the closest your ever gong to get with me.

Your right, this is every amusing indeed.

PS. "Learning from great people" is not just reading their experiences, but actually talking to them about it a back and forth manner, teh way you act, makes, me not want to do that with you in any way.

We're done here.

Edited by: GeneralJist

Thanks for your advice. I appreciate the guidance.

Had some time to cool?

I don't know why I got a such a rise out of you (GeneralJist) or iQew.

It would have been nice if people replied with "Not so in my case, BR. My experience has been just the opposite."

OR

If no one replied or even read the post I made, I would've hardly given it a second thought and soon forgot about it.

But INSTEAD

I got what the Internet offers in abundance.

I'm not interested in your existing heartaches and I have no interest in making new ones for you. But why is it my duty to make people happy by lying to them?

The point is; something I've said resonates true within yourself, and it is not so much me you're trying to convince otherwise, but yourself.

What began as a laugh has now become a bore.

I need something more than just "You're Wrong!" to be convinced.